Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
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26-12-2014, 03:09 PM
Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
I'm certainly not an atheist myself even though I don't belong to a religion or specific faith as they are generally a little bit silly (pork is forbidden, no foreskins, bread/wine literally turns into the flesh/blood of a god-man in your mouth, magic underwear, homosexuality is an abomination to God etc), contradictory, divisive and apparently what you believe is based on where you were born so they're ultimately very likely going to be man made cultural products of a human collective imagination. It can be an impressive work of imagination though and I see no reason why some of these ideas and concepts may not be true in reality so our universe may have designed by a greater intelligence (or intelligences) of some kind for the purpose of creating life/humanity and/or perhaps there is some kind of continued concious existence after the death of body as there is nothing I know personally (and I'm fairly confident that no-one else alive knows Neil Degrasse Tyson included) that would prevent any of this from being true in actual reality, if it is true you don't get top argue that it isn't in your opinion it would just be true. Even if you want to bring up certain known scientific facts such as the Big Bang or evolution those could just be part of the intentional design or purpose of the universe if it was intentionally created this way for all we actually know so there isn't really point taking a "side" on this question unless you want a personal faith or belief which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. I'm also happy with children being brought up within religious traditions as well, if a Jew, Christian' Hindu or Muslim parent wants to bring their children up believing what they believe is true then all the best to them, no-one is harmed and it doesn't ruin mine or Richard Dawkin's day particularly. It may even be generally be a good thing for some or even most people in a society to have a well defined spiritual faith even if it's not necessarily for me, it seems like all civilizations throughout history were united under some kind of religion so it may be a fundamental human need (for most if not all humans we're the exceptions not the rule). If I had a child with a partner who was particularly religious and they wanted to bring them up in a faith they could do that even though they would inevitably have some exposure to my general lack of religiousness and I would explain to them what my opinion, it's the opinion of having an open mind.

While I'm not religious and I wouldn't join a faith myself I'm fine with people believing in religions, God, angels, Atlantis, ghosts, faeries, alien abductions, the Lochness Monster, homoeopathy or whatever they enjoy believing in as long as they're not harming anyone or believing anything we know for a fact isn't true. You may bring up Santa and say we don't know for a fact that he doesn't exist but if he did exist as legend describes him as being then he would be much too obvious for anyone not to notice so you can take his apparent non-existence as factual in his particular case. If Jesus for instance was one third of a Trinity of God that isn't really something you would notice happening if real in the same way as a jolly fat fan dressed in red ridding a sleigh pulled by magical reindeer, you can see how the two things aren't quite comparable in the exact same way as they are two very different propositions with a different observable or lack of an observable outcome if true.

In my own opinion (which you may well disagree with that's fine with me) I see atheism as more a reaction against religion and religious people while maintaining a collective in group mentality, you can post on forums like this for instance, read atheist books, join an atheist convention or "church and feel like you belong to something greater than yourself with "people like yourself" which is perhaps part of the human religious drive. There even seems to be some kind of schism within atheism with this atheism plus business in much the same way a religious movement would form splinter groups and off-shots with adherents to different of a creed so again that's very much comparable to what would happen within a religion.

Instead of being an atheist why not open your mind to the limitless possibilities of what could be possible? I'm not saying the specific doctrines of a Mormon, Sikh, Muslim, Wiccan or whatever are going to be very likely individually as religions but they can still be respected and not called wrong or deluded, brain washed as children or whatever else (though people can be corrected if they're wrong about known certain facts of course). Also when it comes to the deeper and more ultimate questions of our existence why argue against something that you don't personally know is true or untrue as though you know what is true when you don't? Confused You see what I'm saying here? Anyway feel free to facepalm Facepalm and correct any flaws you see in my reasoning or understanding of what atheism actually is this is just my ten pence/overall philosophy concerning the big questions.
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26-12-2014, 03:20 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
Quote:Instead of being an atheist why not open your mind to the limitless possibilities of what could be possible?

Sorry but while I consider digesting the rest of your post, can you tell me whether you think this statement might be a misrepresentation and a malign generalisation?

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N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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26-12-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
My eyes are bleeding.
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26-12-2014, 03:38 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  I'm certainly not an atheist myself even though I don't belong to a religion or specific faith as they are generally a little bit silly (pork is forbidden, no foreskins, bread/wine literally turns into the flesh/blood of a god-man in your mouth, magic underwear, homosexuality is an abomination to God etc), contradictory, divisive and apparently what you believe is based on where you were born so they're ultimately very likely going to be man made cultural products of a human collective imagination. It can be an impressive work of imagination though and I see no reason why some of these ideas and concepts may not be true in reality so our universe may have designed by a greater intelligence (or intelligences) of some kind for the purpose of creating life/humanity and/or perhaps there is some kind of continued concious existence after the death of body as there is nothing I know personally (and I'm fairly confident that no-one else alive knows Neil Degrasse Tyson included) that would prevent any of this from being true in actual reality, if it is true you don't get top argue that it isn't in your opinion it would just be true. Even if you want to bring up certain known scientific facts such as the Big Bang or evolution those could just be part of the intentional design or purpose of the universe if it was intentionally created this way for all we actually know so there isn't really point taking a "side" on this question unless you want a personal faith or belief which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. I'm also happy with children being brought up within religious traditions as well, if a Jew, Christian' Hindu or Muslim parent wants to bring their children up believing what they believe is true then all the best to them, no-one is harmed and it doesn't ruin mine or Richard Dawkin's day particularly. It may even be generally be a good thing for some or even most people in a society to have a well defined spiritual faith even if it's not necessarily for me, it seems like all civilizations throughout history were united under some kind of religion so it may be a fundamental human need (for most if not all humans we're the exceptions not the rule). If I had a child with a partner who was particularly religious and they wanted to bring them up in a faith they could do that even though they would inevitably have some exposure to my general lack of religiousness and I would explain to them what my opinion, it's the opinion of having an open mind.

While I'm not religious and I wouldn't join a faith myself I'm fine with people believing in religions, God, angels, Atlantis, ghosts, faeries, alien abductions, the Lochness Monster, homoeopathy or whatever they enjoy believing in as long as they're not harming anyone or believing anything we know for a fact isn't true. You may bring up Santa and say we don't know for a fact that he doesn't exist but if he did exist as legend describes him as being then he would be much too obvious for anyone not to notice so you can take his apparent non-existence as factual in his particular case. If Jesus for instance was one third of a Trinity of God that isn't really something you would notice happening if real in the same way as a jolly fat fan dressed in red ridding a sleigh pulled by magical reindeer, you can see how the two things aren't quite comparable in the exact same way as they are two very different propositions with a different observable or lack of an observable outcome if true.

In my own opinion (which you may well disagree with that's fine with me) I see atheism as more a reaction against religion and religious people while maintaining a collective in group mentality, you can post on forums like this for instance, read atheist books, join an atheist convention or "church and feel like you belong to something greater than yourself with "people like yourself" which is perhaps part of the human religious drive. There even seems to be some kind of schism within atheism with this atheism plus business in much the same way a religious movement would form splinter groups and off-shots with adherents to different of a creed so again that's very much comparable to what would happen within a religion.

Instead of being an atheist why not open your mind to the limitless possibilities of what could be possible? I'm not saying the specific doctrines of a Mormon, Sikh, Muslim, Wiccan or whatever are going to be very likely individually as religions but they can still be respected and not called wrong or deluded, brain washed as children or whatever else (though people can be corrected if they're wrong about known certain facts of course). Also when it comes to the deeper and more ultimate questions of our existence why argue against something that you don't personally know is true or untrue as though you know what is true when you don't? Confused You see what I'm saying here? Anyway feel free to facepalm Facepalm and correct any flaws you see in my reasoning or understanding of what atheism actually is this is just my ten pence/overall philosophy concerning the big questions.

Well, I've offered to meet God at our local Starbucks and buy him coffee and drive him over to the local childrens hospital so he can cure all the cancer cases there. I tried to make it super easy on him by paying for the coffee and driving the car. It's an ongoing open invitation. The bastard never showns up. Jerk.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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26-12-2014, 03:40 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  In my own opinion (which you may well disagree with that's fine with me) I see atheism as more a reaction against religion and religious people while maintaining a collective in group mentality, you can post on forums like this for instance, read atheist books, join an atheist convention or "church and feel like you belong to something greater than yourself with "people like yourself" which is perhaps part of the human religious drive. There even seems to be some kind of schism within atheism with this atheism plus business in much the same way a religious movement would form splinter groups and off-shots with adherents to different of a creed so again that's very much comparable to what would happen within a religion.

I don't doubt that there might be people that become atheist out of pure rebellion (maybe against the parents), however generalizing that and making it the only nature of being an atheist is wrong. The users on this site are sufficient proof that you're wrong on that one.

I'm not an atheist because I'm a "rebel", my atheism is the conclusion of a path paved with skepticism and with the help of other people talking about it.

About your second point, we don't have a group mentality. Aside from atheism and possibly the lack of belief in other supernatural events, anything can be different. You can find two atheists where the only thing in common is the atheism itself. The way we reach atheism can be different, and the way we live is different.

(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  Instead of being an atheist why not open your mind to the limitless possibilities of what could be possible? I'm not saying the specific doctrines of a Mormon, Sikh, Muslim, Wiccan or whatever are going to be very likely individually as religions but they can still be respected and not called wrong or deluded, brain washed as children or whatever else (though people can be corrected if they're wrong about known certain facts of course). Also when it comes to the deeper and more ultimate questions of our existence why argue against something that you don't personally know is true or untrue as though you know what is true when you don't? Confused You see what I'm saying here? Anyway feel free to facepalm Facepalm and correct any flaws you see in my reasoning or understanding of what atheism actually is this is just my ten pence/overall philosophy concerning the big questions.

We are open to any possibility. I'm open to the idea of there being a God, however, until we find evidence for one, or we even understand "what" is a God, I see no reason to think that there is one.

The same way of thinking that I apply to unicorns, goblins, Godzilla, leprechauns, dwarves, and so on.

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26-12-2014, 03:42 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  In my own opinion (which you may well disagree with that's fine with me) I see atheism as more a reaction against religion and religious people while maintaining a collective in group mentality, you can post on forums like this for instance, read atheist books, join an atheist convention or "church and feel like you belong to something greater than yourself with "people like yourself" which is perhaps part of the human religious drive. There even seems to be some kind of schism within atheism with this atheism plus business in much the same way a religious movement would form splinter groups and off-shots with adherents to different of a creed so again that's very much comparable to what would happen within a religion.

No. Atheism is solely the lack of belief in a deity. The are agnostic atheists, gnostic atheists, ignostic atheists, militant atheists, closet atheists, far-right atheists, far-left atheists, etc... You will note that in each case an adjective, or more commonly a string of adjectives, is required to differentiate between these different nonbelievers. The adjective is what you are talking about.

(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  Instead of being an atheist why not open your mind to the limitless possibilities of what could be possible?

Instead of telling us what we are why don't you ask us what we think. It's much less rude and you wouldn't have looked like such a complete nit.


(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  Also when it comes to the deeper and more ultimate questions of our existence why argue against something that you don't personally know is true or untrue as though you know what is true when you don't?

We don't argue against it. We simply ask for evidence.

(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  You see what I'm saying here?

You are saying that you have a very poor understanding of what an atheist is.

(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  Anyway feel free to facepalm

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26-12-2014, 03:48 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  I'm also happy with children being brought up within religious traditions as well, if a Jew, Christian' Hindu or Muslim parent wants to bring their children up believing what they believe is true then all the best to them, no-one is harmed and it doesn't ruin mine or Richard Dawkin's day particularly.

Facepalm!!! Just kidding.

You bring up some very good points. I have said in another post that "if religion were simply a harmless eccentricity, there would be no reason to oppose it" People should be left free to believe whatever they believe. Unfortunately, religion is not simply a harmless eccentricity, when it promotes racism, misogyny, homophobia, the illusion of moral superiority, etc., and when one of the major dynamics of that religion is to "convert" others to those beliefs, even to the point of attempting to create a theocracy and "requiring" others to live by the particular moral ideas of that religion. This is exactly what at least two of the three Western Monotheistic Traditions are attempting to do--Christianity and Islam, Judaism to a lesser extent.

It does tend to ruin my day when some asshole insists that I am going to burn in hell for eternity because I don't accept his/her personal view of religion. It disgusts me to read about parents who murder their children to "save them from the evils of the world" or who refuse medical treatment for their children in favor of letting the elders "lay hands" upon them, with the usual result of letting them die.

I admire your honesty and your willingness to question the validity of religious claims. I think you are well on the way to becoming a skeptic and critical thinker. A skeptic is simply someone who demands supporting evidence before accepting something as true. That is why, technically, all atheists are agnostics, although their is a significant amount of evidence which suggests that religious beliefs are generally founded upon mythological bases--and if this is true, they are false or not binding.

One of the major problems with religious thinking is that it tends to legitimize superstitious or magical thinking as opposed to critical and logical thinking. This does not bode well for civilization.

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities.--Voltaire.

"To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason is like administering medicine to the dead." --Thomas Paine.
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26-12-2014, 03:59 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
Paragraphs.

Use them.

Use more of them.

Tongue

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26-12-2014, 04:04 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  In my own opinion (which you may well disagree with that's fine with me) I see atheism as more a reaction against religion

Well, you got that part right. Without theism there would be no atheism.

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26-12-2014, 04:10 PM
RE: Here is my argument against atheism if you're interested at all
(26-12-2014 03:09 PM)Cthulhu Wrote:  I'm certainly not an atheist myself even though I don't belong to a religion or specific faith as they are generally a little bit silly (pork is forbidden, no foreskins, bread/wine literally turns into the flesh/blood of a god-man in your mouth, magic underwear, homosexuality is an abomination to God etc), contradictory, divisive and apparently what you believe is based on where you were born so they're ultimately very likely going to be man made cultural products of a human collective imagination. It can be an impressive work of imagination though and I see no reason why some of these ideas and concepts may not be true in reality so our universe may have designed by a greater intelligence (or intelligences) of some kind for the purpose of creating life/humanity and/or perhaps there is some kind of continued concious existence after the death of body as there is nothing I know personally (and I'm fairly confident that no-one else alive knows Neil Degrasse Tyson included) that would prevent any of this from being true in actual reality, if it is true you don't get top argue that it isn't in your opinion it would just be true. Even if you want to bring up certain known scientific facts such as the Big Bang or evolution those could just be part of the intentional design or purpose of the universe if it was intentionally created this way for all we actually know so there isn't really point taking a "side" on this question unless you want a personal faith or belief which is fine if you're into that sort of thing. I'm also happy with children being brought up within religious traditions as well, if a Jew, Christian' Hindu or Muslim parent wants to bring their children up believing what they believe is true then all the best to them, no-one is harmed and it doesn't ruin mine or Richard Dawkin's day particularly. It may even be generally be a good thing for some or even most people in a society to have a well defined spiritual faith even if it's not necessarily for me, it seems like all civilizations throughout history were united under some kind of religion so it may be a fundamental human need (for most if not all humans we're the exceptions not the rule). If I had a child with a partner who was particularly religious and they wanted to bring them up in a faith they could do that even though they would inevitably have some exposure to my general lack of religiousness and I would explain to them what my opinion, it's the opinion of having an open mind.

While I'm not religious and I wouldn't join a faith myself I'm fine with people believing in religions, God, angels, Atlantis, ghosts, faeries, alien abductions, the Lochness Monster, homoeopathy or whatever they enjoy believing in as long as they're not harming anyone or believing anything we know for a fact isn't true. You may bring up Santa and say we don't know for a fact that he doesn't exist but if he did exist as legend describes him as being then he would be much too obvious for anyone not to notice so you can take his apparent non-existence as factual in his particular case. If Jesus for instance was one third of a Trinity of God that isn't really something you would notice happening if real in the same way as a jolly fat fan dressed in red ridding a sleigh pulled by magical reindeer, you can see how the two things aren't quite comparable in the exact same way as they are two very different propositions with a different observable or lack of an observable outcome if true.

In my own opinion (which you may well disagree with that's fine with me) I see atheism as more a reaction against religion and religious people while maintaining a collective in group mentality, you can post on forums like this for instance, read atheist books, join an atheist convention or "church and feel like you belong to something greater than yourself with "people like yourself" which is perhaps part of the human religious drive. There even seems to be some kind of schism within atheism with this atheism plus business in much the same way a religious movement would form splinter groups and off-shots with adherents to different of a creed so again that's very much comparable to what would happen within a religion.

Instead of being an atheist why not open your mind to the limitless possibilities of what could be possible? I'm not saying the specific doctrines of a Mormon, Sikh, Muslim, Wiccan or whatever are going to be very likely individually as religions but they can still be respected and not called wrong or deluded, brain washed as children or whatever else (though people can be corrected if they're wrong about known certain facts of course). Also when it comes to the deeper and more ultimate questions of our existence why argue against something that you don't personally know is true or untrue as though you know what is true when you don't? Confused You see what I'm saying here? Anyway feel free to facepalm Facepalm and correct any flaws you see in my reasoning or understanding of what atheism actually is this is just my ten pence/overall philosophy concerning the big questions.

Where exactly is the argument against atheism in this?

None of that argues atheism; it targets behaviours associated with atheists, but not atheism itself.

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