Here we go again...smacking down creationists
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12-10-2014, 08:12 AM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2014 08:42 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
Here we go again...smacking down creationists
So I am wrapping up my History of christianity REL 450 at Saint Leo university course. It was painful as usual to bite my tongue while regurgitating requisite course material. One of the unhappy creationists there tried to engage me in week two, and I got a frantic email from the instructor asking me not to engage him. "it is low hanging fruit, don't bother, I don't want the class to fall apart". So I didn't engage. There are two atheists in this class, and the first week was a blood bath. SO out of respect for the good professor, I just ignored the tool.

Now we are in week 7 of 8, and he decided to come at me again. He caught me at a bad time and I ripped him apart. Here is the second exchange on the school discussion board of all places. Realize I had emailed him privately earlier in the course asking him to not air out drama on the boards and if he had something he wished to discuss do it via email or come on down to TTA and I would discuss whatever he wished. But, he chose otherwise soooo....

This weeks module question was: Should religion be separated from questions of philosophy and morality? Why or why not?

*I will post my replies in bold for easier reading* I will call him M.

M: Religion should not be separated from philosophy because they are very similar. I have read some interesting articles about religion when the author poses philosophical questions to experts in their faith. I think a lot of information could be deduced from a study of a religion and possed as a philosophical discussion. I think religion is the basis for morality so I don't know how you could discus morality without religion to put it into perspective.

M, you do realize that the bible has jesus not only supporting slavery, but explaining how to appropriately beat your slave?

“The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.”

—Luke 12:46-47

“Thy bond-men and thy bond-maids which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you: of them shall ye buy bond-men and bond-maids. Moreover, of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land. And they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession, they shall be your bond-man forever.”

—Leviticus 25:44-46

“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be punished; for the slave is his money.”

—Exodus 21:20-21

“Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit.”

—1 Timothy 6:1-2

Is this the “basis of morality of which you speak? Could a “god” not realize that one group of humans enslaving another group of humans is wrong on many levels? Truly? I am looking forward to your thoughts on this…

R/
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M: I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. I am flattered that you responded to my post. I think that your blind hatred for God has blurred your vision. I noticed a long time ago that you do not capitalize God when you type, which to be honest I am not sure if it has to be, but you don't capitalize Jesus either. I think that you have missed the point of my post and you have either intentionally, or out of ignorance, taken the scriptures of the new testament out of context. The verse in Luke is about teachers of the Christian faith and not about beating slaves. The verse in Timothy is by no means an endorsement for slavery but instead it is speaking to Christians that are slaves.

Religion is the basis of morality. This statement is the only logical conclusion that I can come to. How else do you explain laws in this country that govern behavior? Why else would sodomy, prostitution, polygamy, homosexuality, adultery, etc. be considered wrong or illegal? I think the basis of right and wrong was established by men that were guided by their religious views. I did use the word basis on purpose. I think society has the right to adjust laws and views of right and wrong as society progresses. I think this is apparent in the modern view of homosexuality.

Now that I have clarified my post do you agree?

M: Thanks for the reply. No I don't have blind hatred for god, god would have to exist for me to hate him. I dislike religion in general. Yes, I purposely do not capitalize jesus or god, they aren't people, places or things, they are imaginary constructs, thus they don't deserve capitalization. If it makes you feel better I don't capitalize spongebob either. I won't bother to deluge you with the copious amount of immoral scriptures, as this isn't the place or time, and the tiny post box couldn't take it. The point is, before religion existed, man existed, man developed conscience and morals by learned appropriate behavior. It doesn't take a fictional book to tell you murder is wrong for you to understand murder is wrong. It all comes down to safety and accepted behavior. Cavemen and their tiny villages survived because they learned to keep each other safe, and developed rules in which to do so...long before religion. The fabricators of the bible used older Sumerian and greek myths when they put this "book" together, and incorporated societal norms of expected good qualities or "morals". I could go on for hours showing you the same story over and over long before the "jesus" story came along. All have the same pattern, and all seemed to borrow the same story for each consecutive "hero god". It just takes a bit of research and desire to know the truth behind the legends. So I posit that morals predated religion.

R/
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M: You are a sad individual. Your logic behind not capitalizing Jesus is so immature that you have no credibility with me. You seem like the type of person that would tell a three year old that there is no Santa Clause. I don't understand why you would attend a Christian school. Did you understand it was a Christian school? I don't think you understood my post.
I wrote that you took the new testament scriptures out of context or you did not understand them. You did not refute my claim so I take it I am right. What proof do you have that man had morals before religion? You have such a small minded approach to this subject I don't think I can fit a big explanation into it so I will continue to break it down.

If a man believes it is real then it is real to him. The fact that his beliefs can't be substantiated is irrelevant. If you understand this I will continue.

*and here is my last reply...thus far, normally i would not do this on the school discussion board, but I refuse to give ground* I took his post, and broke it down with quotes for him, and replies for me. I will bold mine again.

M,

First, I didn’t intend to engage you upon request by others, but you seemed determined.


“Your logic behind not capitalizing Jesus is so immature that you have no credibility with me.”

Sorry to hear that, but your perspective of my credibility has about as much impact as a child not believing something an adult says…zero.

“You seem like the type of person that would tell a three year old that there is no Santa Clause.”

Santa claus doesn’t exist, and jesus is santa claus for adults, hate to be the bearer of the truth, even if it goes against your worldview.

“I don't understand why you would attend a Christian school.”

That doesn’t surprise me. The campus is 2 miles from my house, and they have a good relationship with the military. The fact that they require three religious courses regardless of your beliefs is just par for the course. There is no atheist clause where I am able to opt out of taking Christian mythology classes, if there was, I wouldn’t be hear listening to your ignorant, misinformed, uneducated opinions.

“Did you understand it was a Christian school?”

Do you understand that even though 72% of the US are Christian and declining, 20% are non-religious and 33% of under 30 year olds are non-religious and growing, and that the student body of any school is made up of people from diverse backgrounds and belief systems? Surely you aren’t that clueless.

“I don't think you understood my post.”

I understood your post just fine, I just don’t have the patience here in a class to educate you on your hubris view of your faith.

“I wrote that you took the new testament scriptures out of context or you did not understand them. You did not refute my claim so I take it I am right.”

No, I didn’t bother to drown you in a plethora of immoral scriptures of which the bible is riddled with because it is a waste of energy. You would just find some way to explain it away. A process I understand because if you were to actually read the bible, and analyze it, you would lose your faith, and we couldn’t have that now could we?

“What proof do you have that man had morals before religion?”

What proof do you have that jesus was the son of god? It takes a bit of education, understanding of human perspective and the psychology of learned behavior and development of societal norms to come to that conclusion, but that requires one to think.

“You have such a small minded approach to this subject I don't think I can fit a big explanation into it so I will continue to break it down.”

Good luck with that, I submit I know more than you about the anthropocentric Abrahamic myths, and I can substantiate, validate and articulate that knowledge at great length. Doubt me? Good, come on down to thethinkingatheist website, click forums, ask for goodwithoutgod, that is me, I debate there daily, I have posted many highly researched and cited papers there. There is a subforum called the boxing ring, where two individuals can enter an intellectual debate with no one else allowed to participate, one on one. I can and will answer any questions you have as well as easily dismantle Christianity for you at great length and detail. Not opinions…a cited, referenced, peer reviewed historical breakdown of the myth. Come get some.

“If a man believes it is real then it is real to him. The fact that his beliefs can't be substantiated is irrelevant.”

Truly a statement of ignorance. Faith is the belief in something without evidence. Delusion is an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder. A belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

I believe that venus is hollow and is full of little blue men that sprinkle fairy dust into the great sky cauldron while riding purple unicorns, which created man. Can’t disprove my belief? Then it must be true.


“If you understand this I will continue.”

I understand that knowledge substantiated by facts trumps belief in the imaginary. If you would just seek some education in the myth, learn about the formation of the myth, who created it and why, and how the hero god myth has been a popular construct of man for many years, and they always follow the same design all the way down to, yes even jesus. The question you should be asking yourself is why no one who wrote of jesus knew him. Why none of the miraculous global events were documented at the time by actual witnesses, or heck, even by a court historian or two, someone, anyone at the time of the event. One would ponder that if corpses were bursting out of graves, the earth went dark and the ground shook mightily that someone at the time would have written that down…nope, never happened. A popular fairy tale is still a fairy tale, even if it has a good message. Goldilocks and the three bears has a good message too, but I don’t believe that she actually existed and those events happened. Even if you quote goldilocks to me.

Read, learn, evolve.

R
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Big Grin I know, I am naughty, but sometimes I just gotta whip out the spanking stick. Maybe he will be dumb enough to come here and challenge me in a debate Consider

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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12-10-2014, 08:33 AM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2014 09:12 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
Every moral system, (including the changing ones in the Bible... implying that the gods change) can be demonstrated by cultural historians to come directly from the culture. NOT ONE LAW in the Bible was "given" to the culture. I challenge "him/her" to find ONE, and PROVE it originated with religion.

Obviously he/she has never taken an Anthropology course, (or Comparative Religion Comparative Mythology, or Comparative anything. ALL cultural norms come from culture, NOT religion. Religion imports the norms from society, (which can easily be tracked in Western Culture and societies).

"Religion is good because it produces morality" is also a Utilitarian argument. Utilitarianism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism ) is a slippery slope. Clearly they never thought this one through. The ends justify the means ? Really ? Really ? Not because it's true, but because it produces a desired result. Really ? Consider

His/her problem is one of profound ignorance of History.

I was wondering when it was OK to stone disobedient children. So I consulted the Bible. Deuteronomy 21:18
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father...' tells me when. Thumbsup. And no doubt, there will come back the retort consisting in something "Well, well this is the NEW Covenant". Paul told women they had to STFU, thus demonstrating that for him, and the early Christians, the founders of the cult thought the (old) law remained firmly in place. 1 Corinthians 14:33-35, “As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”

Extra credit for the dolts in the class : Tongue




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-10-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
Ugh, I hate that self-righteous pity thing that Christians do. I cringed a little reading this.

Atheism is the only way to truly be free from sin.
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12-10-2014, 08:47 AM
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
He replied Rolleyes

M: Why do you suppose that prostitution is considered wrong in this country?

M,

Again, I posit that morals predated religion. This is because man predated religion. As man evolved and went from small hunter gatherer groups of wandering tribes and became more settled into villages, they evolved societal norms of expected and appropriate behavior. Killing each other doesn't make for a happy, safe trusting intra village relationship, neither does raping anyone you want, stealing someone else's food etc. Since women were of special value because they bore children, which kept the village strong and defendable, they were a protected class. Anything that countered that one would think would be a negative development. So if Bob and Sam decided they didn't need wives and would snuggle together, that takes away two providers of children from the mix...I would think that would be an unpopular thing. This is purely my opinion, I have no way to prove it, but it is a view popular with sociologists when we look at how societies developed, laws developed, accepted behavior etc. This is supported when one studies indigenous people who have had no contact with religion or even civilized people, and to no surprise these fundamental expectations of behavior are viewed there as well....all without "god".

years later when the villagers would ask the elders why did the baby die, why did the crops not grow, why did the mountain get angry and spout smoke and fire, why did the rain wash out the village, the elders had to come up with answers..."the mountain god is angry we must appease it' Then man figured out how powerful this became, people turned to their elders for answers and thus that gave them power. Religion began and has been exploited ever since to control and subjugate people. Then when they began to write things down, they incorporated accepted societal norms as the word of "god".

Later civilizations developed the "oldest profession". This of course would not have pleased the elders or the older women, who would have pressured their mates (elders) to outlaw it.

Again, this is based on sociological studies, human psychology and the study of the development of societal norms. Secular morality is the aspect of philosophy that deals with morality outside of religious traditions. Modern examples include humanism, freethinking, and most versions of consequentialism. Additional philosophies with ancient roots include those such as skepticism and virtue ethics. Greg M. Epstein states that, "much of ancient Far Eastern thought is deeply concerned with human goodness without placing much if any stock in the importance of gods or spirits.

R/

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------------------------------------------

Laugh out load

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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12-10-2014, 08:53 AM
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
The whole Santa thing makes me laugh.

You are sooooooo mean, GwG, that you would tell a child that Santa isn't real. And it's just inexcusable that you would tell an adult that gawd/jebus isn't real either.


I anxiously await the Easter Bunny and The Great Pumpkin arguments.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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12-10-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
(12-10-2014 08:53 AM)Anjele Wrote:  The whole Santa thing makes me laugh.

You are sooooooo mean, GwG, that you would tell a child that Santa isn't real. And it's just inexcusable that you would tell an adult that gawd/jebus isn't real either.


I anxiously await the Easter Bunny and The Great Pumpkin arguments.

I am so appalled at GWOG's inhumanity (telling kids there is no Santa) that I was going to change my rep of him from positive to negative. Angry

But I discovered that I hadn't repped him yet. Shocking

So now I have to give him positive rep before I punish his cold, dark heart. Angry

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-10-2014, 09:19 AM
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
Great exercise in control and civility on your part, enjoying the tale.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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13-10-2014, 05:46 AM
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
I wonder what his response would be to his own precious bibull acknowledging an Egyptian moral code before the ten commandments were around.

Exodus 2:12-15 Moses kills an Egyptian that he caught beating a Hebrew, the Pharaoh then wants to kill him. Why would that be? He had no ten commandments to tell him it was wrong, he didn't even acknowledge the god of Moses. Sounds like the Egyptians had some type of law that forbade murder and Moses was about to receive justice at the hands of Pharaoh and fled.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-10-2014, 05:51 AM
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionar..._religions

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-10-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: Here we go again...smacking down creationists
(12-10-2014 08:12 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Do you understand that only 55% of the US are Christian and declining, 30% are non-religious and growing, and that the student body of any school is made up of people from diverse backgrounds and belief systems? Surely you aren’t that clueless.

Bit of a side issue, but where did you get this figure? I thought recent polling put it close to 70-75%.
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