Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
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09-06-2017, 11:30 AM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
(09-06-2017 11:18 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(09-06-2017 11:00 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Was patriotism ever this or this is just yearning for good old days?

When I think of a time when Canada was most patriotic, I think of the war years when we were united against a common foe, and 1967, during the Centennial celebrations. (I was alive in '67, not so much during the war years.)

It seems to me that during those times "patriotism" was a positive, motivating force, and had little to do with a yearning for an idealized past that never really existed.

That bit started, I think, with Ronald Reagan and his harkening back to a 1950's style America and has devolved into the "love it or leave it" alt-right thing that's currently popular among Trump voters and other shallow thinkers.

Maybe it just seems to you? For me it is largely word empty of meaning but fashionable to use, tied with hate and bragging to compensate for one inadequacy. I think that people who scream how patriotic they are and how they would kill enemies of motherland are trying to verbally compensate for their failures.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-06-2017, 11:33 AM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
I spent twenty years in the USN, including a total of 27 months of physical therapy.
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09-06-2017, 11:41 AM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
(09-06-2017 11:33 AM)Gawdzilla Wrote:  I spent twenty years in the USN, including a total of 27 months of physical therapy.

So?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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09-06-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
(09-06-2017 10:18 AM)Vera Wrote:  Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. - Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.– Samuel Johnson

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. ... Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others. - Emma Goldman

Do you want me to clarify further how I feel? Rolleyes


I agree with all of these and will just add my own, that patriotism is simply provincialism on a larger scale.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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09-06-2017, 11:51 AM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
I find the worship of anything is bad, I don't mean pride in knowing your history, but worship to the point you cannot accept that regardless of birth place or skin tone, our species is far older than the invention of the artificial written constructs we invented a mere 10,000 years ago.

I value for example, our more open west attitudes. But I also don't gloss over our horrible history of conquest that has been sugar coated with words like "settlers and Pilgrims" or that we had slavery or denied women the right to vote. Or that we put legal innocent Japanese in internment camps during WW2.

The problem with our species worldwide, is that far to often we think short term and locally and forget that we are not a separate species. You can give up on a religion, you can switch to another. You can give up on a political view and adapt another. You can give up on an economic view, and switch to another. But none of us, none of the 7 billion of us can escape two things 1. We cannot escape the fact we are not a separate species. 2. We also cannot escape the fact our species, like all life, needs resources to survive.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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09-06-2017, 11:54 AM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
(09-06-2017 11:42 AM)whateverist Wrote:  I agree with all of these and will just add my own, that patriotism is simply provincialism on a larger scale.

Well, we, as a species, do tend towards provincialism Rolleyes

So …altogether I can’t believe the special stories that’ve been made up about our relationship to the universe at large because they seem to be…too simple, too connected, too local, too provincial. The “earth,” He came to “the earth”, one of the aspects God came to “the earth!” mind you, and look at what’s out there…? how can we…? it isn’t in proportion…!




"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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09-06-2017, 12:04 PM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
Heritage seems less flawed than patriotism as an ideal but is it really? Maybe it is "pride" that is the trouble maker here. So long as one is content with their heritage and feel that it is as noble as any, then no problem. But if I'm a fan of my heritage over that of others, then that again just seems unreflective, narrow and low brow like patriotism.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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09-06-2017, 12:24 PM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2017 12:54 PM by Vera.)
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
Yeah, I struggle with the word pride, too. You cannot feel pride because of the achievement of others (especially pathetically exemplified in sports: like, I feel literally embarrassed when I see people I know say how proud they are because Grigor Dimitrov (the tennis player) has won something. Or because (an idiot of) a Bulgarian woman still holds the high jump world record. So, what exactly did *you* do that you're proud of?)

But even leaving pride aside, why should the achievements of someone fill me with more admiration than those of someone else, who happens *not* to have been born on the same patch of arbitrarily divided dirt that I was?

I admire what our entire species has achieved equally, be it Vivaldi, Da Vinci or Tesla, their origin doesn't enter into it at all.

Anything else smacks too strongly (and revoltingly) of the tribal, us-and-them mentality which I think is the reason for a WHOLE LOT of what is wrong with the world.

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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09-06-2017, 12:26 PM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
There's so much bad stuff attached to all of these concepts that I have a hard time feeling attached to them, even though all have positive aspects as well. I'm not proud of my ancestors or the countries my ancestors left. However, I'm curious about them as people, and some of them have interesting stories.

My ethnic background is pretty mixed. On my father's side it's largely English and Scots and Cherokee, with people either already living in North America or coming in the 1600s-1700s. On my mother's side, it's immigrants from the 1920s from Norway and some unknown Eastern European country in the that threw out my grandfather and his brothers. Despite having relatively recent immigrant roots, there were no customs or traditions reflecting these passed down to me as a child.

I occasionally mention on here that I'm distantly related to the most drunken US President, Grant, and that a couple of other distant relatives claimed (probably a lie) to be orderlies for Washington at Valley Forge. My grandmother dug up a hilarious--to me--obituary of one of the ex-orderlies that describes his deathbed vision of "My General" beckoning him from the other side...

Regarding patriotism, I love my country (the USA), but I also loathe certain aspects of it and find lots of its history disquieting and not admirable in the least. I pay taxes, contribute to my community, obey the law, and do my civic duty. I try to improve life here when I see the opportunity. I wouldn't label this patriotic, though. I think of myself as a responsible citizen, and that's about as far as I can go. My stance almost certainly would make most self-described patriots call me un-American, and that's fine with me.
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09-06-2017, 12:41 PM
RE: Heritage/Patriotism/Culture
(09-06-2017 11:42 AM)whateverist Wrote:  I agree with all of these and will just add my own, that patriotism is simply provincialism on a larger scale.

I would call it tribalism. Same as religion or any other given ideology. People don't define themselves over their identity but over something supposedly greater than themselves. Which ultimately leads to exclusivness and the loss of identity.

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