"Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
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14-09-2012, 04:42 PM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(14-09-2012 09:46 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 03:44 AM)shiranl Wrote:  I finished my service last month. To answer your question, we should first define what a "hero" is. In my opinon, hero is someone who protects your interests before he protects his. Assuming your interest and his interest is living, he therefor risks his interest in order to protect your interest. Therefor, every soldier who ever risked his life as part of his job- is infact a hero.

You are only twenty and you have already finished serving in the military? IDF? Was it conscript? Just curious...

Do you know why that is the way it is?

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14-09-2012, 05:26 PM (This post was last modified: 14-09-2012 05:47 PM by shiranl.)
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(14-09-2012 02:57 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 01:05 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Already? wow, usually I am talled the service in Israel is quite long...any how, yes- I already finished it becuase the service of girls is usually 2 obligatory years (some jobs requier 3 obligatory years, like guys serve). I was drafted when I was 18 and half, a month after I graduated highschool and about a month ago I was released.

I would say 2 years is very short. In America you are usually required to serve at least for years active duty, and 4 years inactive reserve duty. With that being said, we havn't had a draft in about 40 years. I personally think conscripted service is immoral. I think the British conscripted service is two years as well though they don't have this anymore either. Perhaps a Brit could correct me?

Because in America you have a profesional militray, not a draft. You didn't had to do those years in the army, I had to do those 2 years in the army. And- while a privet in the American army is paid a good salary, my "salary" was less then 100$ per month.
By the way, here the reserve duty is up until 45 years of age for men, and up until the first pregnency for women. I personally was "off the hook", so I won't do reserve, unless I decide to volunteer.

Well, morals are changed when you're fighting for your life. Israel doesn't have a population of several hundreds of millions of people, like the USA does. We barely get to 8 million, out of them almost 2 million are Arabs. So we are left with 6 million people who actually have an interest to protect this country. When considering the fact a 50 years old can't fight like a 20 years old, we are down to several hundred of thousands of people who's capable to serve in the army. How many of them really want a military career I don't know, what I do know is that it is not enough in order to maintain a fanctional army like Israel needs. Therefore, a conscript service is becoming very, very, moral. Understood?
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14-09-2012, 08:14 PM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(14-09-2012 05:26 PM)shiranl Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 02:57 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I would say 2 years is very short. In America you are usually required to serve at least for years active duty, and 4 years inactive reserve duty. With that being said, we havn't had a draft in about 40 years. I personally think conscripted service is immoral. I think the British conscripted service is two years as well though they don't have this anymore either. Perhaps a Brit could correct me?

Because in America you have a profesional militray, not a draft. You didn't had to do those years in the army, I had to do those 2 years in the army. And- while a privet in the American army is paid a good salary, my "salary" was less then 100$ per month.
By the way, here the reserve duty is up until 45 years of age for men, and up until the first pregnency for women. I personally was "off the hook", so I won't do reserve, unless I decide to volunteer.

Well, morals are changed when you're fighting for your life. Israel doesn't have a population of several hundreds of millions of people, like the USA does. We barely get to 8 million, out of them almost 2 million are Arabs. So we are left with 6 million people who actually have an interest to protect this country. When considering the fact a 50 years old can't fight like a 20 years old, we are down to several hundred of thousands of people who's capable to serve in the army. How many of them really want a military career I don't know, what I do know is that it is not enough in order to maintain a fanctional army like Israel needs. Therefore, a conscript service is becoming very, very, moral. Understood?

Yes, I understand the position, but that does not make it moral. If the people of the country collectively decide that it is not worth defending, than so be it. You can provide justifications for it all you want, they may even be "good" justifications, but coercion is always immoral in my opinion.

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15-09-2012, 03:58 AM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(14-09-2012 08:14 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 05:26 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Because in America you have a profesional militray, not a draft. You didn't had to do those years in the army, I had to do those 2 years in the army. And- while a privet in the American army is paid a good salary, my "salary" was less then 100$ per month.
By the way, here the reserve duty is up until 45 years of age for men, and up until the first pregnency for women. I personally was "off the hook", so I won't do reserve, unless I decide to volunteer.

Well, morals are changed when you're fighting for your life. Israel doesn't have a population of several hundreds of millions of people, like the USA does. We barely get to 8 million, out of them almost 2 million are Arabs. So we are left with 6 million people who actually have an interest to protect this country. When considering the fact a 50 years old can't fight like a 20 years old, we are down to several hundred of thousands of people who's capable to serve in the army. How many of them really want a military career I don't know, what I do know is that it is not enough in order to maintain a fanctional army like Israel needs. Therefore, a conscript service is becoming very, very, moral. Understood?

Yes, I understand the position, but that does not make it moral. If the people of the country collectively decide that it is not worth defending, than so be it. You can provide justifications for it all you want, they may even be "good" justifications, but coercion is always immoral in my opinion.

And if the people collectively decided it does worth it?
Yes, it's the law here to do a militery service. But the truth is- if you really don't want to serve in the army, you won't serve in the army. The IDF neither needs nor wants someone who can and will betrey it. Why, if then, most of the people do serve in the army, large amount of them CHOOSE to go to a combat unite and risk their life (the army can make you join, but it can't make you to do a combat service. You need to volunteer to do so) ? Becuase many of them understand that unlike America, we never had the choice to go to war or not.
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15-09-2012, 07:58 PM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(15-09-2012 03:58 AM)shiranl Wrote:  
(14-09-2012 08:14 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Yes, I understand the position, but that does not make it moral. If the people of the country collectively decide that it is not worth defending, than so be it. You can provide justifications for it all you want, they may even be "good" justifications, but coercion is always immoral in my opinion.

And if the people collectively decided it does worth it?
Yes, it's the law here to do a militery service. But the truth is- if you really don't want to serve in the army, you won't serve in the army. The IDF neither needs nor wants someone who can and will betrey it. Why, if then, most of the people do serve in the army, large amount of them CHOOSE to go to a combat unite and risk their life (the army can make you join, but it can't make you to do a combat service. You need to volunteer to do so) ? Becuase many of them understand that unlike America, we never had the choice to go to war or not.

If it is a law that is intentionally easily subverted then there is no need for the law. Respectfully, I'm going to call bullshit. Either way it is against my morals. Hopefully I understood the essence of your post, no offense but your English was a little difficult to understand, hope I interpreted it correctly.

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16-09-2012, 01:42 AM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(15-09-2012 07:58 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 03:58 AM)shiranl Wrote:  And if the people collectively decided it does worth it?
Yes, it's the law here to do a militery service. But the truth is- if you really don't want to serve in the army, you won't serve in the army. The IDF neither needs nor wants someone who can and will betrey it. Why, if then, most of the people do serve in the army, large amount of them CHOOSE to go to a combat unite and risk their life (the army can make you join, but it can't make you to do a combat service. You need to volunteer to do so) ? Becuase many of them understand that unlike America, we never had the choice to go to war or not.

If it is a law that is intentionally easily subverted then there is no need for the law. Respectfully, I'm going to call bullshit. Either way it is against my morals. Hopefully I understood the essence of your post, no offense but your English was a little difficult to understand, hope I interpreted it correctly.


Who said easily? I said "if you really don't want to serve, you won't serve". But the path towards the release from duty won't be easy. You will sit in jail, you will have a criminal record, you won't be able to get out from the country. And if that is not enough, you'll be a scum in the eyes of the society.
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16-09-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(16-09-2012 01:42 AM)shiranl Wrote:  
(15-09-2012 07:58 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  If it is a law that is intentionally easily subverted then there is no need for the law. Respectfully, I'm going to call bullshit. Either way it is against my morals. Hopefully I understood the essence of your post, no offense but your English was a little difficult to understand, hope I interpreted it correctly.


Who said easily? I said "if you really don't want to serve, you won't serve". But the path towards the release from duty won't be easy. You will sit in jail, you will have a criminal record, you won't be able to get out from the country. And if that is not enough, you'll be a scum in the eyes of the society.

The we are back to my original opinion. It is immoral to force people to do something that is against their will.

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16-09-2012, 01:03 PM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(16-09-2012 11:36 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 01:42 AM)shiranl Wrote:  Who said easily? I said "if you really don't want to serve, you won't serve". But the path towards the release from duty won't be easy. You will sit in jail, you will have a criminal record, you won't be able to get out from the country. And if that is not enough, you'll be a scum in the eyes of the society.

The we are back to my original opinion. It is immoral to force people to do something that is against their will.

That seems too absolute for various reasons. What about making your children do things like brush their teeth or go to school?

On a more abstract level, in a democratic society the people form a social contract. This is embodied in the laws and not everyone will agree, there will be compromise. Taxes, jury duty, military service, etc. can be and are legislated.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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16-09-2012, 01:23 PM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(16-09-2012 01:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 11:36 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  The we are back to my original opinion. It is immoral to force people to do something that is against their will.

That seems too absolute for various reasons. What about making your children do things like brush their teeth or go to school?

On a more abstract level, in a democratic society the people form a social contract. This is embodied in the laws and not everyone will agree, there will be compromise. Taxes, jury duty, military service, etc. can be and are legislated.

To absolute? My opinion, is my opinion, you don't have to like it, or agree with it but as I have said on other posts. "I own myself." If I own myself, no one but me can decide what is done with me. Not the government, not anyone. If they do, I consider that immoral. Maybe you belong to someone else, but I do not.

Children made to brush there teeth against there will is not the same thing. Children do not have the skills, intellect, or experience to take care of themselves. The parents, or guardian has taken the responsibility to care for them until they become able to be independent. Before you make the analogy that government should do the same to us, treat us as if we were children, stop. I am plenty old enough to make my own decisions. I take responsibility for my own actions. If I do harm to myself I have to deal the consequences so why should you care? None of your damn business, like it or not. If I do harm to others, that is a different story altogether. Then I have done what I have been condemning. I have harmed another person, whom I do not own. Then I should be punished by society.

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16-09-2012, 01:31 PM
RE: "Hero" Woship (Opinions of the military servicemen)
(16-09-2012 01:23 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(16-09-2012 01:03 PM)Chas Wrote:  That seems too absolute for various reasons. What about making your children do things like brush their teeth or go to school?

On a more abstract level, in a democratic society the people form a social contract. This is embodied in the laws and not everyone will agree, there will be compromise. Taxes, jury duty, military service, etc. can be and are legislated.

To absolute? My opinion, is my opinion, you don't have to like it, or agree with it but as I have said on other posts. "I own myself." If I own myself, no one but me can decide what is done with me. Not the government, not anyone. If they do, I consider that immoral. Maybe you belong to someone else, but I do not.

Children made to brush there teeth against there will is not the same thing. Children do not have the skills, intellect, or experience to take care of themselves. The parents, or guardian has taken the responsibility to care for them until they become able to be independent. Before you make the analogy that government should do the same to us, treat us as if we were children, stop. I am plenty old enough to make my own decisions. I take responsibility for my own actions. If I do harm to myself I have to deal the consequences so why should you care? None of your damn business, like it or not. If I do harm to others, that is a different story altogether. Then I have done what I have been condemning. I have harmed another person, whom I do not own. Then I should be punished by society.

I didn't say or imply that anyone owns you. It is the price of living in the society of other human beings to have to compromise, and that includes limiting people's behavior.

Seeking redress for wrongs is fine, but preventing the wrong in the first place is usually better, hence law and regulation.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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