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04-08-2015, 08:10 PM
Hey Zeus!
I have read some pretty compelling evidence as to why Jesus never existed, but I recently discovered that Hitchens asserted that Jesus of Nazareth was actually a real person. Does anyone know his argument for this or have any good resources to check out on the subject?

Gracias

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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04-08-2015, 08:16 PM
RE: Hey Zeus!
(04-08-2015 08:10 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  I have read some pretty compelling evidence as to why Jesus never existed, but I recently discovered that Hitchens asserted that Jesus of Nazareth was actually a real person. Does anyone know his argument for this or have any good resources to check out on the subject?

Gracias

Bart Ehrman has a book called How Jesus Became God and Richard Carrier has a book called On The Historicity of Jesus. Both equally good books--each offering a different perspective on Jesus.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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04-08-2015, 08:18 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 09:47 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Hey Zeus!
(04-08-2015 08:16 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 08:10 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  I have read some pretty compelling evidence as to why Jesus never existed, but I recently discovered that Hitchens asserted that Jesus of Nazareth was actually a real person. Does anyone know his argument for this or have any good resources to check out on the subject?

Gracias

Bart Ehrman has a book called How Jesus Became God and Richard Carrier has a book called On The Historicity of Jesus. Both equally good books--each offering a different perspective on Jesus.

Both of Jenny's recommendations are great reads. Dr Carrier's is very deep and has like 85 pages of citations, heavily researched....an interesting perspective

Whether a physical man named jesus from nazarene existed or not is not relative to him being the son of the abrahamic faith based mythical god though. I dont have a problem with conceding a physical person may have existed that the myth was fabricated around, since no one who ever wrote of jesus knew him, not even paul, or witnessed the miracles, and there exists not one scrap of evidence of his existence, or contemporary corroboration of the magic spun in the fictional book called the bible, it really doesnt matter if the man walked the earth before being unceremoniously nailed to a piece of wood like a common criminal or not.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-08-2015, 08:38 PM
RE: Hey Zeus!
(04-08-2015 08:10 PM)Octapulse Wrote:  I have read some pretty compelling evidence as to why Jesus never existed, but I recently discovered that Hitchens asserted that Jesus of Nazareth was actually a real person. Does anyone know his argument for this or have any good resources to check out on the subject?

Gracias

There's plenty of arguments both ways, but the reality is that there is one consistency that is found in various sources in which those who believe Jesus was a total myth cannot adequately address.

Circa AD 32, Jesus, who was called Christ, was crucified by Pontius Pilate in Judea.

Sources for this consistency are many, beginning with the Gospel Records, Acts, and Letters of Paul from Christian sources. From the Jewish sources we have Flavious Josephus. Roman sources we have Cornelius Tacitus. Greek/Pagan sources, we have the Gnostics.

All these sources, and many others, indicate this same consistency. This consistency has never changed in 2000 years, and has never been successfully challenged by anyone.

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04-08-2015, 08:52 PM
RE: Hey Zeus!
Quote:Circa AD 32, Jesus, who was called Christ, was crucified by Pontius Pilate in Judea.

Uh-huh...and the EVIDENCE for that is what?

Try to remember that Josephus, Tacitus ( who never mentions any "jesus" ) were not contemporaries of your fictional godboy.

People who were contemporary with your alleged godboy, Philo of Alexandria, Seneca, Pliny the Elder, and Paterculus, none of whom ever heard of your boy.

Josephus' Book XVIII is a blatant forgery and Book XX is a minor mistake by an overzealous scribe.

So, your bullshit aside, certainly none of them ever mentioned a fucking date.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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04-08-2015, 08:59 PM
RE: Hey Zeus!
Not this again.

Popcorn

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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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04-08-2015, 09:29 PM
RE: Hey Zeus!
Dear OP.

While it is possible a man named Jesus walked the earth, Jesus the Christ however, is most unlikely.

And no, outside of literature approved by the church to remain in circulation, no evidence of Christ exists. In fact the Christian Roman empire on more than one occasion took time to destroy any books harmful to xianity.

One may ask, why were they so afraid? Wink

(04-08-2015 08:59 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Not this again.

Popcorn


Indeed!

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I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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04-08-2015, 11:41 PM (This post was last modified: 04-08-2015 11:46 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: Hey Zeus!
(Most of what follows is what I've heard from podcasts from various experts of the subject, and not anything I can really cite myself. Take it for what little it's worth.)

The claim is generally accepted, even by those outside of the religion, as simple convention.

The evidence for it is sparse, flimsy, and unreliable at best. An increasing number of free-thinking authors are pointing this out in recent years.

There are no contemporary accounts, including no scribes' notes on a decree to that effect by Pilate.

The first "records" appear decades after the fact and are dubious on many levels. The accounts differ on many key points (such as last words), borrow from each other heavily (making them not independent), differ with the reality that was recorded elsewhere (the character and governing style of Pilate), contain fabulous events that were never recorded by contemporaries (and damn well would have been, like the darkness and walking dead), and in many cases testify to events that the named sources would not have witnessed (virgin birth, temptation in the desert, etc).

Later, more scholarly accounts aim to simply describe the beliefs of early Christians but are misrepresented by apologists as accounts of fact. These are not independent. Others, like Josephus, contain obvious forgeries and modifications. (Josephus hailing Jesus as messiah while not himself being Christian is a bit of a tell.)

The chain of custody is highly dubious as well. The institutions that venerated, preserved, and promulgated these documents had vested commercial, political, and emotional interests in advancing certain doctrines and views, and would have benefited greatly from their modification. My understanding is that high-placed church officials advocated publicly for doing exactly that (including one that is contemporaneous with the modifications to Josephus). They also, quite publicly, engaged in the destruction of competing interpretations and documents as heretical and blasphemous. What did those burned books say? Some of them, we may never know.

Does any of this disprove the existence and crucifixion of a Jesus about that time? No. It's hard to prove a negative. But it does remove most of the rational reasons for believing, firmly, that it DID happen. It might have... and it might not have...

... and but for the fantastic claims of religions and the beliefs of their adherents and the way those impact us, it wouldn't matter in the slightest.
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04-08-2015, 11:45 PM
RE: Hey Zeus!
(04-08-2015 08:38 PM)Free Wrote:  There's plenty of arguments both ways, but the reality is that there is one consistency that is found in various sources in which those who believe Jesus was a total myth cannot adequately address.

Circa AD 32, Jesus, who was called Christ, was crucified by Pontius Pilate in Judea.

Sources for this consistency are many, beginning with the Gospel Records, Acts, and Letters of Paul from Christian sources. From the Jewish sources we have Flavious Josephus. Roman sources we have Cornelius Tacitus. Greek/Pagan sources, we have the Gnostics.

All these sources, and many others, indicate this same consistency. This consistency has never changed in 2000 years, and has never been successfully challenged by anyone.


You once again gloss over how the Gospels are anonymously written, and decades (if not centuries) after the supposed events, our earliest copies of which are anything more than scraps come form centuries later; and the fact that later sources cannot be independently verified to be sourced from anything other than already believing Christians (who they themselves already believed, not not necessarily because they themselves had any evidence, which is still sitting at right about fuck all). There are no eye-witness accounts, and even the Josephus passages (which are almost certainly later Christian interpolations, most likely created by Eusebius of Caesarea) happened decades after the supposed events and aren't sourced from any witnesses either.


Say it with me again: Sources quoting already-believing Christians removed by decades (if not centuries) from the supposed events and without any evidence themselves, does not count as evidence or independent corroboration!


So... "Circa AD 32, Jesus, who was called Christ, was crucified by Pontius Pilate in Judea" means fuck all, because you cannot even begin to come close to establishing that event actually happened.

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05-08-2015, 05:39 AM
RE: Hey Zeus!
What's funny -- the same people who believe that some Jewish preacher existed 2000+ years ago - and he's also the guy who created the universe, and is all knowing and omnipotent --- on just the "evidence" of a moldy old book?????

If some kid showed up on their doorstep - claiming to be their illegitimate kid - and had a photograph of the mom ----- would be turned down flat - as "unbelievable" --- and would demand not just state issued ID, a birth certificate and letters from lawyers --- but would also demand a DNA test......

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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