Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-09-2014, 08:46 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 08:21 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 07:39 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Lose the labels when you rightfully talk about confirmation bias. Humans evolutionary flawed perceptions in pattern seeking have always and unfortunately been part of our evolution. It is not something Christianity invented or owns a patent on.

Not only humans, all life seeks patterns. All behaviors are based on patterns of previous experiences. Even plants. Without pattern recognition there is no surviving. Humans just carry it into an abstract realm...

Lets not equate plants to human thought. Plants do not think. They do not have cognition in the slightest. Molecular DNA evolution does not need awareness. If you believe that then you are in the same woo boat as a theist.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-09-2014, 09:03 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 07:19 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Is it because they don't shove their Christianity down people's throats? Or, because they believe in REAL science?

It's the "REAL science" thing. In a professional setting, their personal religious beliefs are completely irrelevant because they don't bring them into the lab.

You could probably add Kenneth Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_R._Miller) to the list as well. He's Catholic AND an outspoken opponent of teaching creationism and intelligent design. I personally learned a lot about evolution from him while trying to make up for deficiencies in my Christian school science education after my deconversion. I actually found out about him because Aron Ra recommended watching one of his lectures on youtube. That recommendation was based entirely on his work as a scientist and professor; I didn't learn until later that he was a Christian.

The irony with these guys is that fundamentalists try to hijack their professional credentials and accomplishments in order to legitimize their own religious beliefs while simultaneously criticizing them for things like not believing in young earth creationism. One of my Pentecostal friends recently shared a video of Francis Collins discussing his conversion, and the very first comment was along the lines of "even though he claims to be a Christian he believes in evolution..."

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Can_of_Beans's post
04-09-2014, 09:04 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
KC, it is really not that hard to hold science and religion. I did while I was a believer. Never did I find them to be mutually exclusive. To me, and I suspect many others, science and religion answer question about different aspects of life. The problem arises when people like Ham, et al use religion in place of science. When I was still religious people like that made my head hurt, well still do but in a different way now.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-09-2014, 09:07 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 09:03 AM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 07:19 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Is it because they don't shove their Christianity down people's throats? Or, because they believe in REAL science?

It's the "REAL science" thing. In a professional setting, their personal religious beliefs are completely irrelevant because they don't bring them into the lab.

You could probably add Kenneth Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_R._Miller) to the list as well. He's Catholic AND an outspoken opponent of teaching creationism and intelligent design. I personally learned a lot about evolution from him while trying to make up for deficiencies in my Christian school science education after my deconversion. I actually found out about him because Aron Ra recommended watching one of his lectures on youtube. That recommendation was based entirely on his work as a scientist and professor; I didn't learn until later that he was a Christian.

The irony with these guys is that fundamentalists try to hijack their professional credentials and accomplishments in order to legitimize their own religious beliefs while simultaneously criticizing them for things like not believing in young earth creationism. One of my Pentecostal friends recently shared a video of Francis Collins discussing his conversion, and the very first comment was along the lines of "even though he claims to be a Christian he believes in evolution..."

Good for Keith, that is actually the official position of the Catholic church on evolution.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-09-2014, 09:07 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
Hey KC,

I veiw these 3 like I do Ken Miller from Brown University. They do not seem to let their beliefs get in the way on science. Miller has written biology textbooks used across the country (though probably not in Texas).

I think McGrath is probably the farthest afield in his veiws but his big degree is in Theology.

In regards to respecting them and you, it probably stems from the respect shown to others. You are not the "typical" xian user that shows up and deficates all over the forum and leaves.

I have never seen any of these three trying to deny rights to others or impose their views. I think that, coupled with their standing in their fields makes others respect them, even when the disagree on a particular issue.

Signed
The Heathen KC Tongue

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like KidCharlemagne1962's post
04-09-2014, 09:35 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 09:07 AM)wazzel Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 09:03 AM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  It's the "REAL science" thing. In a professional setting, their personal religious beliefs are completely irrelevant because they don't bring them into the lab.

You could probably add Kenneth Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_R._Miller) to the list as well. He's Catholic AND an outspoken opponent of teaching creationism and intelligent design. I personally learned a lot about evolution from him while trying to make up for deficiencies in my Christian school science education after my deconversion. I actually found out about him because Aron Ra recommended watching one of his lectures on youtube. That recommendation was based entirely on his work as a scientist and professor; I didn't learn until later that he was a Christian.

The irony with these guys is that fundamentalists try to hijack their professional credentials and accomplishments in order to legitimize their own religious beliefs while simultaneously criticizing them for things like not believing in young earth creationism. One of my Pentecostal friends recently shared a video of Francis Collins discussing his conversion, and the very first comment was along the lines of "even though he claims to be a Christian he believes in evolution..."

Good for Keith, that is actually the official position of the Catholic church on evolution.

Sort of... I think the official position is that we evolved into Adam and Eve. Scientifically, there was never a time when there were only two humans on the planet. But the point is that his views on evolution are based on science, not church doctrine.

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-09-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 08:46 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 08:21 AM)Dom Wrote:  Not only humans, all life seeks patterns. All behaviors are based on patterns of previous experiences. Even plants. Without pattern recognition there is no surviving. Humans just carry it into an abstract realm...

Lets not equate plants to human thought. Plants do not think. They do not have cognition in the slightest. Molecular DNA evolution does not need awareness. If you believe that then you are in the same woo boat as a theist.

Plants seek patterns. I have a fig tree that is borderline for this climate. After getting seriously frozen down to a couple feet above ground 3 winters in a row, it has now grown wide rather than high.

I have a honeysuckle bush that grew in the Llama pasture. They kept nibbling on it. It ceased to make shoots inside the fence and started to grow outside the fence. Took it 4 years, but it has been totally outside the fence for years now.

Plants do recognize patterns, they just don't have a lot of ways to respond to them. If you want to call it intelligence, then they are intelligent. I think it's more basic than what we think of as intelligence. The survival of everything depends on pattern seeking.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-09-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 09:35 AM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 09:07 AM)wazzel Wrote:  Good for Keith, that is actually the official position of the Catholic church on evolution.

Sort of... I think the official position is that we evolved into Adam and Eve. Scientifically, there was never a time when there were only two humans on the planet. But the point is that his views on evolution are based on science, not church doctrine.

No. The position, in summary, is evolution is the most likely explanation of the creation of the body. God created the soul. The PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES has a nice paper on it. I am looking for a link.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-09-2014, 09:56 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 09:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 08:46 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Lets not equate plants to human thought. Plants do not think. They do not have cognition in the slightest. Molecular DNA evolution does not need awareness. If you believe that then you are in the same woo boat as a theist.

Plants seek patterns. I have a fig tree that is borderline for this climate. After getting seriously frozen down to a couple feet above ground 3 winters in a row, it has now grown wide rather than high.

I have a honeysuckle bush that grew in the Llama pasture. They kept nibbling on it. It ceased to make shoots inside the fence and started to grow outside the fence. Took it 4 years, but it has been totally outside the fence for years now.

Plants do recognize patterns, they just don't have a lot of ways to respond to them. If you want to call it intelligence, then they are intelligent. I think it's more basic than what we think of as intelligence. The survival of everything depends on pattern seeking.

No they do not. YOU are projecting cognition on chemical and molecular reactions. Reactions are not an act of seeking. Worms seek, plants react.

DNA does not seek at the strand level, it is merely a process. The organization of the DNA determines if something is merely a condition, to more organized life that seeks.

YES branches on trees grow to maximize absorbing sunlight, but that is a process of conditions, it is not "seeking".

Otherwise if mere patterns constituted seeking then our solar system is a living thing too because it is organized.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-09-2014, 10:01 AM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2014 10:15 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 07:19 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Francis Collins - Bachelor's Degree in Chemistry from the University of Virginia / Ph.D. in Physical Chemistry from Yale / M.D. from University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill / one of the leaders of the Human Genome Project / founder of BioLogos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins


Alister McGrath - DPhil in Molecular Biophysics and a Doctorate of Divinity in Theology from Oxford University

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alister_McGrath


Robert Bakker - Ph.D. in Paleontology from Harvard University / one of the world's leading paleontologists / is the one of the "go to" guys in regards to dinosaurs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_T._Bakker


I'm asking because these men are obviously not blatant, outright fools like Hamsammich and WLC, but they claim the same religion as the aforementioned fools.

They are well respected in the science world and the topic of their religion rarely comes into play when they discuss science. I understand that this is probably because all three are either ECs or TEs, but the fact remains that they are Christians.

I have tried to model my Christianity after people such as this because they seem to be able to function socially in an amalgamated world (unlike Retard Boy and Super Dunce).

Is it because they don't shove their Christianity down people's throats? Or, because they believe in REAL science?

Just curious. Why is it that these guys (and myself) are respected and accepted in nearly every group of peoples and their Christian beliefs aren't brought up as a detraction from the work that they do (well... except for me... here on TTA... we have KC's Law, but I think people do that for S&Gs... mostly Dodgy mostly...)

KC, while these men are far less annoying than your run-of-the-mill internet cannon-fodder, they're still not compelling. If I remember correctly, Collin's evidence for god amounts to seeing a frozen triple waterfall while hiking and chalking that up to divine intervention. Until one of them has a Nobel Prize for presenting evidence for the divine, it's still just not compelling; even if it's presented in a generally less offensive packaging.

In the end they are able to compartmentalize things and contribute greatly to advancing our scientific understanding of the world. They do their research and it gets peer reviewed and it stands up to the scrutiny of their peers. Notice however that their writings on their faith fail to match these same rigorous standards. So I can respect these men (and others, like biologist Ken Miller, who despite being a devout Catholic defended evolution in the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial) for their contribution to science, but that doesn't get them carte blanche approval.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like EvolutionKills's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: