Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
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04-09-2014, 10:02 AM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2014 10:07 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
McGrath reminds my of a Trollope character... a crusty vicar type.

See him here getting his arse handed to him...




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04-09-2014, 10:03 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
I've always wanted to ask Collins why that waterfall represented the Christian trinity rather than the three aspects of Brahman in Hinduism...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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04-09-2014, 10:05 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 09:56 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 09:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  Plants seek patterns. I have a fig tree that is borderline for this climate. After getting seriously frozen down to a couple feet above ground 3 winters in a row, it has now grown wide rather than high.

I have a honeysuckle bush that grew in the Llama pasture. They kept nibbling on it. It ceased to make shoots inside the fence and started to grow outside the fence. Took it 4 years, but it has been totally outside the fence for years now.

Plants do recognize patterns, they just don't have a lot of ways to respond to them. If you want to call it intelligence, then they are intelligent. I think it's more basic than what we think of as intelligence. The survival of everything depends on pattern seeking.

No they do not. YOU are projecting cognition on chemical and molecular reactions. Reactions are not an act of seeking. Worms seek, plants react.

DNA does not seek at the strand level, it is merely a process. The organization of the DNA determines if something is merely a condition, to more organized life that seeks.

YES branches on trees grow to maximize absorbing sunlight, but that is a process of conditions, it is not "seeking".

Otherwise if mere patterns constituted seeking then our solar system is a living thing too because it is organized.

It depends on how you define seeking. That fig is made to stand tall, all it's DNA tells it so. It found a pattern confined to it's own life and altered it's actions accordingly. If it succeeds and survives this way, it's offspring will have some predisposition to act in the same way. There is no evolution without pattern recognition.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-09-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 09:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 08:46 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Lets not equate plants to human thought. Plants do not think. They do not have cognition in the slightest. Molecular DNA evolution does not need awareness. If you believe that then you are in the same woo boat as a theist.

Plants seek patterns. I have a fig tree that is borderline for this climate. After getting seriously frozen down to a couple feet above ground 3 winters in a row, it has now grown wide rather than high.

I have a honeysuckle bush that grew in the Llama pasture. They kept nibbling on it. It ceased to make shoots inside the fence and started to grow outside the fence. Took it 4 years, but it has been totally outside the fence for years now.

Plants do recognize patterns, they just don't have a lot of ways to respond to them. If you want to call it intelligence, then they are intelligent. I think it's more basic than what we think of as intelligence. The survival of everything depends on pattern seeking.

No, not pattern seeking. They don't seek patterns. They have evolved to do what is best suited to their environment.

Let's not anthropomorphize plants.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-09-2014, 10:18 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 10:07 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 09:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  Plants seek patterns. I have a fig tree that is borderline for this climate. After getting seriously frozen down to a couple feet above ground 3 winters in a row, it has now grown wide rather than high.

I have a honeysuckle bush that grew in the Llama pasture. They kept nibbling on it. It ceased to make shoots inside the fence and started to grow outside the fence. Took it 4 years, but it has been totally outside the fence for years now.

Plants do recognize patterns, they just don't have a lot of ways to respond to them. If you want to call it intelligence, then they are intelligent. I think it's more basic than what we think of as intelligence. The survival of everything depends on pattern seeking.

No, not pattern seeking. They don't seek patterns. They have evolved to do what is best suited to their environment.

Let's not anthropomorphize plants.

Pattern recognition. They would not have evolved to fit so many different environments if they had no pattern recognition, they would long have died out. It has nothing to do with anthropomorphization.

Bacteria recognize patterns or they would not mutate to adapt to antibiotics.

Noting can ever evolve without pattern recognition.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-09-2014, 10:18 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 10:07 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 09:40 AM)Dom Wrote:  Plants seek patterns. I have a fig tree that is borderline for this climate. After getting seriously frozen down to a couple feet above ground 3 winters in a row, it has now grown wide rather than high.

I have a honeysuckle bush that grew in the Llama pasture. They kept nibbling on it. It ceased to make shoots inside the fence and started to grow outside the fence. Took it 4 years, but it has been totally outside the fence for years now.

Plants do recognize patterns, they just don't have a lot of ways to respond to them. If you want to call it intelligence, then they are intelligent. I think it's more basic than what we think of as intelligence. The survival of everything depends on pattern seeking.

No, not pattern seeking. They don't seek patterns. They have evolved to do what is best suited to their environment.

Let's not anthropomorphize plants.

BINGO! And thank you.

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04-09-2014, 10:21 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 10:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 10:07 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  No, not pattern seeking. They don't seek patterns. They have evolved to do what is best suited to their environment.

Let's not anthropomorphize plants.

Pattern recognition. They would not have evolved to fit so many different environments if they had no pattern recognition, they would long have died out. It has nothing to do with anthropomorphization.

Bacteria recognize patterns or they would not mutate to adapt to antibiotics.

Noting can ever evolve without pattern recognition.

BULL FUCKING SHIT!

If you believe a mere "pattern" is an act of "seeking" then our solar system is pattern seeking. Organization by itself is not "seeking".

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04-09-2014, 10:24 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 10:21 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 10:18 AM)Dom Wrote:  Pattern recognition. They would not have evolved to fit so many different environments if they had no pattern recognition, they would long have died out. It has nothing to do with anthropomorphization.

Bacteria recognize patterns or they would not mutate to adapt to antibiotics.

Noting can ever evolve without pattern recognition.

BULL FUCKING SHIT!

If you believe a mere "pattern" is an act of "seeking" then our solar system is pattern seeking. Organization by itself is not "seeking".

What is it with the seeking? There is not even a definition for that. I keep talking about recognition. Are you saying that evolution can happen without organisms reacting to repetitious stimuli?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-09-2014, 10:29 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 10:05 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 09:56 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  No they do not. YOU are projecting cognition on chemical and molecular reactions. Reactions are not an act of seeking. Worms seek, plants react.

DNA does not seek at the strand level, it is merely a process. The organization of the DNA determines if something is merely a condition, to more organized life that seeks.

YES branches on trees grow to maximize absorbing sunlight, but that is a process of conditions, it is not "seeking".

Otherwise if mere patterns constituted seeking then our solar system is a living thing too because it is organized.

It depends on how you define seeking. That fig is made to stand tall, all it's DNA tells it so. It found a pattern confined to it's own life and altered it's actions accordingly. If it succeeds and survives this way, it's offspring will have some predisposition to act in the same way. There is no evolution without pattern recognition.

Figs are not "made" they evolved, nor do they "seek". Mere organization does not constitute pattern seeking. There is a huge difference between a reactive process based on condition, and some life that does "seek". The difference is the organization of of the atoms COLLECTIVELY.

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04-09-2014, 10:36 AM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
Adenine, Guanine, Thymine and Cytosine, as individual molecules do not "seek" they react to each other. It is the collective structure depending on species of life that evolves to seek.

Otherwise one could argue our solar system because it has a pattern can "seek" as well.

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