Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
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04-09-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 01:25 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 01:10 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  It's not you, it's them.

They're sooo used to jumping on theists they don't stop to consider much else. It's becoming a bit of an issue.

It's sad. You should stick around, if nothing else help them learn.
Not sure what happened to KC but I always liked and respected him, but he has turned into an "angry theist" lately and wants to be babied. Sorry you caught me at a crabby moment that produced a snarky question, but need a semi thick skin to claim to be chosen by god and not recieved some snarky jabs from time to time.

we've other theists come here with good, or well meaning intentions and few (not you specifically) have jumped on them with so much vitriol that it's almost disturbing to see happen. Yes, the obnoxious troll theists are more common, but we all should know KC has never been one of those.

Sometimes it's far easier to see the ways we're alike than focus on our differences. Right now, on the forum it seems the opposite is more true.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-09-2014, 01:44 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 12:29 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 11:32 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Strawman much? I would be willing to bet KC believes none of those things. It is possible to be a Christian without being a Biblical literalist, and I would guess that most Christians are not Biblical literalists. I was a Catholic for years, and I never believed that Eve popped out of Adam's rib -- or even that Adam and Eve existed as real people. And the Catholic Church didn't require me to believe those things.

The world is not as black and white as you're painting it. There are intelligent theists.

Yes - how can one determine what can be ignored if your specific religion is based on this book that is the word of god? To be a christian is to accept the word of god. Please explain how being a christian can also give one authority to disregard what your one true god has told you? WTF?

These are good questions, and the inability to answer them to my satisfaction is one reason I'm now an atheist. In a sense, the Biblical literalists are at least logically consistent. If the Bible really is the Word of God, who are we to question any of it? And once you do start to question it, where do you stop? It becomes a slippery slope. If this and this and this can't be taken literally, how do you know what can? How do you know any of it can? I eventually slid all the way off of that slope.

On the other hand, what if it is not the direct Word of God, but only man's flawed, imperfect representation of such? There could still be a core of some sort of truth there, and we have to wrestle with figuring out what that core of truth is. Some very intelligent people have devoted their lives to doing that, and I'm not going to call them idiots just because I disagree with them.

You know, the Christians can play that game, too: "Just read Aquinas's Summa Theologica (or Calvin's Institutes...), and if that doesn't convince you, maybe you're just not intelligent enough." Or they will point out all the towering intellects who have been theists (there are a lot of them). There are actually a lot of them (towering intellects) on both sides, so it's a pointless game to play. Can't we just respect the other point of view for what it is, respectfully disagree with it, and stop trying to paint them all as idiots?
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04-09-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 01:00 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm done here (TTA), but I just wanted to clear something up before I logged out for good (still have to log out of my tablet at home).

The topic title was a tongue-in-cheek joke. Whenever I ask for opinions from atheists, I always mock the common belief that atheists are sinful heathens. I know better, and in fact, it's a term of endearment.

Maybe I took for granted the amount of people that understood this, but ask anyone who read the title that knows me or has been communicating with me over the past 3 years and they will tell you the same.

Sorry you took it the wrong way... it was actually a compliment to atheists.

Oh well.

C'est la vie.

Off in search of new endeavors.

Not everyone here has interacted with you enough to know where you are coming from. One of the things I've found on this forum is that over time you develop a certain respect for others because of their postings and the way they express themselves. I don't agree with everything they may say but if agree most of the time I do my best to be civil with them and hope they'll return the favor. Hell, even if I don't agree as long as they aren't shits about it I say live and let live.

Having a history of exchanges, both public and private is what creates the community feel and none of us can expect that every time someone new comes on to know anything about any of us, same as in the real world.

IMHO you are trying to lead the horse to water and make it drink and are getting upset when it doesn't. Somethings are just...oh, I don't know...preordained. Big Grin Angel

Chill out, go have an ice cream, double scooper. Drooling

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-09-2014, 03:34 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 01:00 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm done here (TTA), but I just wanted to clear something up before I logged out for good (still have to log out of my tablet at home).

The topic title was a tongue-in-cheek joke. Whenever I ask for opinions from atheists, I always mock the common belief that atheists are sinful heathens. I know better, and in fact, it's a term of endearment.

Maybe I took for granted the amount of people that understood this, but ask anyone who read the title that knows me or has been communicating with me over the past 3 years and they will tell you the same.

Sorry you took it the wrong way... it was actually a compliment to atheists.

Oh well.

C'est la vie.

Off in search of new endeavors.
Hope to see you back again KC - although we disagree on much it's always been interesting to read your opinions.


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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04-09-2014, 05:11 PM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2014 06:32 PM by Simon Moon.)
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
I don't have a problem with any theist that does science, as long as the leave their faith based beliefs outside the lab and do actual science. Which seems true for Collins and Bakker. Not sure about McGrath.

I'm actually not sure that calling these scientists 'apologists' is accurate, though. The do science, not travel the world making excuses for the various logical and factual problems with their religion and 'holy' text.

What I'd love to know though, is how they harmonize their acceptance of evolution and common descent, with their religious beliefs?

Since they understand the we descended from a common ancestor, and not dust man and rib woman, that means there was no temptation by a talking snake, eating of the fruit, no original sin, no need for Yahweh to sacrifice himself to himself in order to forgive the sin (that we don't have).
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04-09-2014, 06:30 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 07:19 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Is it because they don't shove their Christianity down people's throats?

That. I work with a shitload of world class scientists who are very religious: Fundies, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs. They don't wear it on their sleeve and proseltyizing is explicitly forbidden in my workplace so it rarely even comes up.

(04-09-2014 05:11 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  What I'd love to know though, is how they harmonize their belief in evolution and common descent, with their religious beliefs?

I don't think they necessarily harmonize it so much as compartmentalize it. I can relate to that. Hell, I've been a fucking nihilist for going on 4 decades now and I still get up and go to work in the morning.

#sigh
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04-09-2014, 06:58 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 07:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(04-09-2014 07:32 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Accepted - not so sure!?

Ummm... yes, they are. All three of them are very much accepted and respected in their particular field of research.

Quote:I think there is a whole lot of confirmation bias going on with christians who are scientists. You have to stray pretty far away from the scriptires that the religion is based upon in order to hold evolution to be true.

No. No, you don't. In fact, it's a much straighter path with no loopholes to accept evolution in conjunction with scripture.

Quote:Intellectual dishonesty plays a role too - I mean lets face it, no amount of scientific degrees will lead one to believe in rising from the dead and ascending into a place called heaven!

Point taken.

In my humble opinion and experience; intelligent, educated introspective creationists that I have debated in the past, or come across, seem to kind of sit in the middle. They accept the obvious scientific proof available for all to peruse, while sticking to their faith in something bigger then us, and readily admitting that the bible is largely a parable with a message. They don't try to spin the bible as a literal source of truth, because...well they have read it and due to IQ and education can wave aside the fairy tale portions, stir through the pseudepigrapha and interpolations, and focus on the parts that have meaning to them.

What else can they do though? For one to hold onto faith in the face of so much counter biblical evidence requires one to compromise a bit here and there. I have long said there is a direct correlation between low IQ/low education and fundamentalist literal belief.

Just my musings before going to bed Yes Didn't mean to ramble so long Unsure

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-09-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
ooooh just caught up on the whole thread...KC quit again? That is a shame, while I think he hoped to quietly guide some of us heathens (hehe) to the "light", I think deep down inside he was an atheist trapped in denial Yes

I enjoyed your insightful posts, while disagreeing with your religious perspective of course. But adults can have different points of view as long as they can enter intellectual discourse with mutual understanding of each other's points of view. I can count on one hand the amount of believers I respected, you were one.

peace

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-09-2014, 07:14 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
(04-09-2014 06:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I don't think they necessarily harmonize it so much as compartmentalize it. I can relate to that. Hell, I've been a fucking nihilist for going on 4 decades now and I still get up and go to work in the morning.

*Compartmentalize*. That's the ticket. The finest scholar we've seen here abouts was able to do that. Don't understand that, but that's what was going going on. (Plus maybe there's some "rose colored glasses" about "founders" ... whoever they were ... maybe an element of celebrity-hero-saint worship. Best thing about growing up seeing celebs-(supposed)saints early... "pfft .. they're all fakes".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-09-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: Hey heathens... want your sinful opinions these Christian apologists.
It depends on the context of the believe and what sect of the belief you are from.

A intelligent fool is still a fool after all. Someone can be intelligent and still be fool enough to be one of those you cannot be good without god fundamentalists out there who think aliens from other galaxies from another dimension are going to hell because our dirt man and rib woman ate from a magical tree because a talking snake told them it is a good idea.

Any real scientific minded person who would believe in such a thing is a fool and has abandoned the right to call themselves a scientist.

Also, just for the argument against them in and of themselves. Let us not forget the logical fallacy of appeal to authority.

It is fine to use a comment or quote from someone from time to time. Just remember, never use the person themselves as your basis for an argument.

An example would be Stephen Hawking said this, there for since he is so smart, I am right and your wrong.

Now, as for the research from anything he might had done being used is OK. So long as you put up with enough information of the heavily peer reviewed work that went with it and compare or contrast it to anything that might conflict with it or previously conflicted with the idea before as well.

For those who simply believe that there may be an afterlife or that the sky fairy might or does exist and has no super natural unknowable aspect to their belief. I do not believe that something quite like that would be out of the question for someone to believe in. Even if there is little to no evidence for such things existing.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
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