Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
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14-10-2015, 06:38 AM
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
(13-10-2015 05:23 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:True...the kid would also be alive today if his parents had taught him walking around the playground with a gun tucked in his pants was a bad idea....at some point we have to take responsibility for our actions, and the inactions of parents.

Sure to an extent. People do stupid shit for all sorts of reasons, mental illness, desperation, bad upbringing etc... This kid was exactly that, a kid. Yea he shouldn't have done this or that but he was a kid. If the excuse is always "well he shouldn't have been doing this or that" than you create issues because it's not always someone being a dick for the sake of being a dick. Police are trained, it's their job and so they should be held to a higher standard to handle situations far better than what they are doing in the States.

I agree that the Police were in that situation right to shot him. They didn't know if it was real or fake. Fair call. The issue I have is that the officers never assessed the situation, they herd "guy" "gun" "park" and rode around like a bunch of idiot cowboys. Speculation but I wouldn't be surprised if they 'wanted' to shoot someone. The kid shouldn't have been waving a gun around but the Police shouldn't have done what they did and the Police, IMO, have a duty to behold to a higher standard and so would be responsible in this case.

The days of "surround the perimeter and wait the perps out" are gone.

Nowdays the doctrine is to get into action FAST --- because that improves the outcomes of the "lone shooter" scenario.....

We know now of course that it wasn't a real gun - and was wielded by a kid --- but the officers could not have known that. They responded as if an "active shooter" was in a park....

It's probably going to happen again, and again......

Or you change the doctrine -- and you'll end up with more cops getting killed because they hesitate when they shouldn't.

.........

There's no easy answer.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-10-2015, 05:05 PM
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
(13-10-2015 05:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Grand jury has yet to meet. I ain't a lawyer like BnW but I'd argue that release of those "independent" reviews prior to the grand jury was prejudicial at best and prosecutorial misconduct at worst. I'd argue they aren't admissible.

I'm at a loss on this. I don't know if these are admissible, but it doesn't make sense that the prosecution would seek to admit them. Their job is to get an indictment. These reports say the cops didn't do anything wrong. So, why is the prosecution posting these on their website.

I suspect it's to get people used to the idea that the cops are getting off. And, personally, I think they probably should. This was a horrific tragedy, but, given the cops were told the kid had a gun and was pointing it at people, they had an obligation to make sure he didn't hurt anyone. I don't think this falls into the same narrative as many of the other shootings. I feel awful for this kids parents, but I think this is just an unfortunate accident.

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When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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14-10-2015, 05:14 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 05:17 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
(14-10-2015 05:05 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 05:43 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Grand jury has yet to meet. I ain't a lawyer like BnW but I'd argue that release of those "independent" reviews prior to the grand jury was prejudicial at best and prosecutorial misconduct at worst. I'd argue they aren't admissible.

I'm at a loss on this. I don't know if these are admissible, but it doesn't make sense that the prosecution would seek to admit them. Their job is to get an indictment. These reports say the cops didn't do anything wrong. So, why is the prosecution posting these on their website. I suspect it's to get people used to the idea that the cops are getting off.

Pardon my cynicism, but I suspect it's because the prosecution is not interested in getting an indictment.

(14-10-2015 05:05 PM)BnW Wrote:  And, personally, I think they probably should. This was a horrific tragedy, but, given the cops were told the kid had a gun and was pointing it at people, they had an obligation to make sure he didn't hurt anyone. I don't think this falls into the same narrative as many of the other shootings. I feel awful for this kids parents, but I think this is just an unfortunate accident.

Extenuating circumstances are that the rookie cop who shot him had already been found to not be suitable as a police officer in another jurisdiction for being mentally unstable and trigger happy.

#sigh
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14-10-2015, 05:18 PM
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
I recall that. Not sure how that will impact anything. From a criminal case perspective, I don't think it will matter. You need to prove they did not act reasonably, which is going to be tough. I think that is going to be relevant to the inevitable civil law suit, which has a much lower burden of proof.

I'm working off media accounts, not actual evidence, so there could still be an indictment here. I just don't think there will be. We will see.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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14-10-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
(14-10-2015 05:18 PM)BnW Wrote:  I recall that. Not sure how that will impact anything. From a criminal case perspective, I don't think it will matter. You need to prove they did not act reasonably, which is going to be tough. I think that is going to be relevant to the inevitable civil law suit, which has a much lower burden of proof.

I'm working off media accounts, not actual evidence, so there could still be an indictment here. I just don't think there will be. We will see.

I think you are right. It was a sequence of very bad decisions which led to tragedy. From the kid playing with a toy gun which had its red tip indicator removed, to the 911 dispatcher who failed to mention the 911 caller mentioned they thought it was a toy, to the training officer who aggressively drove within 10 feet of the kid instead of assuming a standoff distance, to the kid who looked 20 instead of 12, to the rookie cop who should never have been given a gun. It looks like very bad policing instead of criminal.

#sigh
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14-10-2015, 07:23 PM
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
I'm not even convinced it was bad policing. The cops are in a tough spot. They don't know it's a toy gun, no one tells them they think it's a toy gun, and the kid reaches for it. It's a play ground filled with people, including children. Do you take your chances that it's a toy? Do you wait and see what happens? What if it's a real gun and he brings it out and fires and some kid is shot? Then what? Was the decision not to shoot the kid bad policing?

I have no idea what the answers are to all this. I just think that this is a tragic situation for everyone involved. I can't imagine the cops are happy they shot a 12 year old unarmed kid. But, just because it's tragic doesn't mean it's criminal, or even negligent. Sometimes you can do things correctly and get a shitty result.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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14-10-2015, 08:04 PM
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
(12-10-2015 07:30 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Yea I agree that the cops had no reason to think the gun was fake. If I was the judge in this case I likely would have given the same ruling.

BUT, the issue I have is that the cops just drove right up to him, if he had a gun they shouldn't have done that. They should have kept their distance to better judge the situation. If they'd done that that kid would still be alive today.
It's a consequence of a culture where you let everyone have pistols.
Easy to carry, easy to conceal, easy to fire.
It makes everyone dangerous, it makes being a cop more risking than would otherwise be th e case.
If the cops hold back then the gun advocates claim what is the use of cops when they hold back, they then call for all peoples to get themselves some guns to protect themselves because they can't rely on the cops to help out.
If the cops hold back and the kid starts shooting people then the cops are to blame
If the cops go in and stop the guy with the gun looking implement then the cops are to blame.

They just can't win.

I know if I was a cop in USA I'd probably be trigger happy too, if someone might have a gun and appears to reach for it then I ain't gonna wait to be shot to confirm that indeed it is a gun.

Give peeps guns, the consequence is that the cops are gonna get nervous and kill some peeps.
Same thing with peeps at home with their home protection guns, something moves at night, it gets shot. Doesn't matter if its some drunk young girl stumbled into the wrong house.
Scared people with guns are deadly. Angry people with guns are deadly too. If there is a gun in the house then the odds increase drastically that a wife or girlfriend will get shot.
If you get in a gun fight, your chances of survival are not great. Best protection is to move to a safer neighborhood, perhaps a safer country where people aren't walking around with guns.
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14-10-2015, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 08:58 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
(14-10-2015 07:23 PM)BnW Wrote:  I'm not even convinced it was bad policing. The cops are in a tough spot. They don't know it's a toy gun, no one tells them they think it's a toy gun, and the kid reaches for it. It's a play ground filled with people, including children. Do you take your chances that it's a toy? Do you wait and see what happens? What if it's a real gun and he brings it out and fires and some kid is shot? Then what? Was the decision not to shoot the kid bad policing?

You establish a safe standoff distance, secure and contain the threat, and establish communications.

What you don't do is drive up at high speed within 10 feet of the person of interest and start shooting before you've even given him the chance to comply with your lawful order. It's a canonical example of bad policing.

#sigh
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15-10-2015, 04:52 AM
RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
What is a "safe standoff distance" in a public park with people when you're told the person has a gun? I think it's unfair to play Monday Morning Quarterback when you didn't have the responsibility of public safety and limited information.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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15-10-2015, 09:38 AM
Bug RE: Hey remember that 12 year old black kid that got killed by white cops?
(15-10-2015 04:52 AM)BnW Wrote:  What is a "safe standoff distance" in a public park with people when you're told the person has a gun?
The park looked empty except for the kid.

(15-10-2015 04:52 AM)BnW Wrote:  I think it's unfair to play Monday Morning Quarterback when you didn't have the responsibility of public safety and limited information.

Here's an article investigating the "reasonableness" of the cops actions. Apparently there is a Supreme Court ruling that “events leading up to a shooting” do not “permit a plaintiff to establish a Fourth Amendment violation based merely on bad tactics that result in a deadly confrontation that could have been avoided.” It makes the same point you do about Monday Morning QBing.

#sigh
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