Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
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27-07-2012, 09:52 AM
Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
So gay marriage is in the media here after being drawn from a random ballot in parliament. I don't know if it will pass but we'll see. Might actually finally have a reason to go protest something...
And of course my fuckhead flatmate has an opinion on everything, and being rather heavily into all that religion crap it's pretty obvious where he stands on gay marriage.

So there we are sitting watching this on the 6o'clock news as always and he's flapping his gums about the abomination that is gay marriage. Me not being anything like myself kept my mouth shut simply because I really can't be bothered with the backlash if I was to open my mouth and rip into this cunt.
Anyway, he keeps going stating that it shouldn't be just gay marriage but any marriage shouldn't be considered a marriage unless it is done in and by the church.
I didn't even open my mouth, I deserve a medal, that right there people is will power.

He said that he believes marriage is a religious thing and such should be kept that way (note that this guy flips shit when people who aren't Christians 'celebrate' Christmas).

So this got me thinking, he may have a point. Why would a couple of gays want to get married into something that stems from the church, I mean afterall the church is not exactly rolling out the welcome mat.
But then I thought, nah, fuck ya.

Marriage was before religion. Tribes in Africa, Asia, Ancient Greece, Rome (before it decided to adopt Yagei), all over the world even before the existence of 'god'.
Catholicism, Christianity etc.. whatever just adopted it and decided to make it a 'sacred' thing to them.
But this doesn't mean marriage belongs to them.
Worshiping/Praying was adopted by Catholicism and whatever too, does that mean prayer belongs to the pope????

So what does this all mean? Well why the fuck is gay marriage illegal? If marriage and the church are separate then is it not an obvious breach of basic human rights?
Why is it that religion is playing such a role in something that effects secular society and has nothing to do with the church?

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27-07-2012, 10:59 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
Muff Muff - did you wake up in my skin?!?! I have been arguing this very thing ... probably since before your birth!

In France, people often marry several times, in several churches, for different parts of the family, etc.,. but the only one that counts is the one in front of the judge at the courthouse. It's the only one that is LEGALLY RECOGNIZED.

So... why does religion have to bestow it's "blessing" on the legality of anything?!?! WTF!?!?

There is clearly a dick fight going on between the religious and the secular "powers that be" - at least in the US - and it's seriously pissing me off. Angry

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27-07-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(27-07-2012 10:59 AM)kim Wrote:  There is clearly a dick fight going on between the religious and the secular "powers that be" - at least in the US - and it's seriously pissing me off. Angry

One hopes that when the pants are down, the secular powers have the larger wiener...
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27-07-2012, 11:49 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(27-07-2012 10:59 AM)kim Wrote:  Muff Muff - did you wake up in my skin?!?! I have been arguing this very thing ... probably since before your birth!

In France, people often marry several times, in several churches, for different parts of the family, etc.,. but the only one that counts is the one in front of the judge at the courthouse. It's the only one that is LEGALLY RECOGNIZED.

So... why does religion have to bestow it's "blessing" on the legality of anything?!?! WTF!?!?

There is clearly a dick fight going on between the religious and the secular "powers that be" - at least in the US - and it's seriously pissing me off. Angry

The religious can't get their pointy heads around the concept of civil marriage without conflating it with religious marriage. They are welcome to define marriage in their churches any way they want, but that does not (should not) prescribe the definition of civil marriage - a legal entity.

A secular state can define civil marriage in a non-religious manner.

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27-07-2012, 02:46 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
The people who are against gay marriage don't care where marriage started or who started it. These people want the world run the word of god in the bible because they are incapable of thinking for themselves. It's people like that that hold humanity back.

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27-07-2012, 07:06 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
When I married my first husband, we had both a religious and a non religious wedding.

The non religious one was in the court house (and the legal marriage) and afterwards we went to a beer hall with all of our buddies. Then we slept that off for a day (well, you don't do much sleeping when you just got married) and then had a catholic wedding to please my extended family (and get lots of presents). I was just 17 and atheist but it didn't bother me at all, nor did it bother Bill. We never even mentioned religion when we talked, neither of us apparently gave a shit one way or another.

Anyway, before we were allowed to have a catholic wedding we had to go see a priest. The priest wanted to know what religion Bill was, - episcopalian. (first time I heard about that, lol). So then Bill had to swear that we would have children and that we would raise them catholic. Apparently I had nothing to say in the matter, no one asked me. I think Bill would have sworn anything at the time. Smile

So, the catholics want you to marry catholic and make lots more catholics. Having children was mandatory, and raising them catholic was mandatory. Not sure whether I wasn't asked was because my papers identified me as catholic and I was expected to know this, or if the woman had no say in the matter period.

Gays can't make babies, so they can't make little catholics. So they are disqualified.

The catholic wedding was completely voluntary though, only the civil marriage mattered legally.

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27-07-2012, 07:54 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
I've gone through the Catholic pre-marriage thing (we wanted to get married inside Catholic church because of her family). It was a point of contention because I made it clear to my then fiancee that I absolutely would not promise to raise my children Catholic for the simple reason that I wasn't going to and had no interest in lying. But no such promise was required. I did a pre-marriage weekend course at the Montreal Arch Diocese. It was actually a pretty decent idea if not boring and ass numbing. Taught couples a lot of things. It was smart. But yeah, no promising for me.

If I remember correctly, the priest we met with later said that our marriage was not sacramental because she was raised Catholic and I was an Agnostic. So they didn't really give a fuck. All they insisted on was that we took Catholic vows. Two Catholics though? That's sacramental (like 7 sacraments style). But if two non-Catholics get married in a Catholic church and they are both of the same denomination (say, both Baptists), then they consider that a sacramental marriage. I don't know what they ask from them.

Anyone against gay marriage (it's really about gay rights, but hey) is on the wrong side of history. They're gonna lose the fight. Guaranteed. The Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms can only be ignored for so long.

For me, allowing gays to marry legally (like to enjoy the rights of couples) is a fucking no-brainer. Not allowing it is a travesty. But I don't know where I stand on the Church rituals. I mean, people have the right to do whatever they like, so design your rituals how you will. But people don't have the right to discriminate, so let there be gay. I don't know where that line is drawn legally. I do know that introducing gay marriage into a church is a great way to cause a schism.

They're here! They're queer! Let them enjoy a fifty percent divorce rate!





Ultimately, I think the only reason the Christian right is making such a big deal about it is because they know that the homosexual situation is intractable, that is to say, they will always be there. But they're a minority, so they'll never have power. The only way they'll get their full rights is through heterosexual allies in powerful places. Odds are, they'll be struggling for rights for a long time. So the Christian right leadership can paint it all as an attack on Christianity. This allows them to manipulate the church members (the Zed effect in action). Like Orwell said, the war was not meant to be won, it was meant to be continuous.

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

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27-07-2012, 08:07 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
Seems to me that the churches can dictate who they will perform a religious ceremony for. If you are gay and want your marriage blessed in a church, then I suppose you need to pick a church that goes along with it. It's their club, their rules.

The civil marriage...the legal contract binding two people together should be available to anyone.

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27-07-2012, 08:12 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(27-07-2012 07:54 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Anyone against gay marriage (it's really about gay rights, but hey) is on the wrong side of history. They're gonna lose the fight. Guaranteed. The Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms can only be ignored for so long.

For me, allowing gays to marry legally (like to enjoy the rights of couples) is a fucking no-brainer. Not allowing it is a travesty. But I don't know where I stand on the Church rituals. I mean, people have the right to do whatever they like, so design your rituals how you will. But people don't have the right to discriminate, so let there be gay. I don't know where that line is drawn legally. I do know that introducing gay marriage into a church is a great way to cause a schism.

They're here! They're queer! Let them enjoy a fifty percent divorce rate!





Ultimately, I think the only reason the Christian right is making such a big deal about it is because they know that the homosexual situation is intractable, that is to say, they will always be there. But they're a minority, so they'll never have power. The only way they'll get their full rights is through heterosexual allies in powerful places. Odds are, they'll be struggling for rights for a long time. So the Christian right leadership can paint it all as an attack on Christianity. This allows them to manipulate the church members (the Zed effect in action). Like Orwell said, the war was not meant to be won, it was meant to be continuous.

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

The church knows full well what is at stake here, (especially the RC's). The entire foundational philosophy, (Aristotelian-Thomistic "natural law"), of their cult's morality, with respect to this is based on "natural law". If that is admitted as false, (as science has obviously proven it to be), then it exposes a crack in their systematics. If this goes, then, everything else is in jeopardy, also. They know very well, what is at stake.

The only reason for limiting someone's rights, (as established in legal history), is that there has to be a "demonstrated state interest" for limiting a person's rights. Since no one can come up with a reason for "state interest", here, (ie harm to the children), the courts can be expected to strike down, (just as in the Loving v Virginia racial marriage case), any law which limits the rights of human citizens. I used to be fairly pessimistic this SCOTUS would rule correctly in the case of Prop 8. Now I think they just might. If they do, it will be a great day, for US jurisprudence.

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27-07-2012, 10:00 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
I'm not saying we should make churches marry gay people.
Like someone above said, their clubs their rules.
I still stand by my statement of why would anyone want to get married in an institute where they are clearly not welcome but only there because someone said they have to be allowed in.

What I'm saying is that marriage has NOTHING to do with the church. Yes the church feel strongly about the act of marriage, but like I say they also feel strongly about prayer and eating bread and wine (Catholic) etc...
Are we going to stop people eating bread and drinking wine now because the church takes it seriously?

Any law making citizen (members of parliament) is given this power to make law that is suppose to be fair for all. They may not like certain things but you are suppose to do your job in the interest of the people.
They're making this a conscious vote in our Parliament. That means this is a topic much like abortion or euthanasia where members of parliament are given the opportunity to vote by personal opinion and not party policy.
Well I actually find that offensive.
This is a clear cut case of equal rights for all and not some ethical decision like abortion.

I can't get this out of my head, which is surprising because I normally don't give two shits about NZ issues (or at least not use to being on the minority side like in this case) nor do I have any interest in getting married. But I think this is more then just giving gays the same rights as everyone else, it's about MP's doing their fucking job.
It makes you wonder. This country isn't very religious but we have this "Kiwi Bloke" masculine image. This very mans-man image and we're proud of it. We have this image of farmer in his muddy boots working hard down on the farm. This rugby player image. For you US folk out there, think one big country of jocks. And so you get something like gay marriage or gay people in general and it's not well accepted at all. This is why it's an issue, ignorance, and that's what I hate. Religious reasons I could almost understand, but it's not, it's just plain hate and ignorance.

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