Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
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28-07-2012, 04:42 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
Hey, Bucky.

I don't think it's quite so dire. I don't think a little cock sucking is gonna bring down a 2 000 year old church. They can survive the change. They just aren't doing it. In the case of the Catholic church, I think it's just about inertia. It's only the US Christian right that's rabidly fighting it.

I agree that they need to give them their rights, but people don't just get rights. States issue the least rights possible, not the most.

Hey, Earmuffs.

I agree. I think legal marriage should be universal (like suffrage; which itself is only like 100 years old). But the church has made it their issue and they have lobbyists. Ah lobbyists. Destroying democracy for everyone.

And of course you find MPs offensive. They're MPs!

Also, I think you mentioned something important. It's just tabboo. It's a memetic issue. The "no gay" meme has vast representation in the meme pool. It takes a long time to reduce that representation and to increase the representation of the "gay OK" meme. We need to reach a tipping point we haven't reached yet. But progress is definitely in that direction.

Also, we can't look at this issue as, "they should just have rights, maaaaaan." Of course they should. But it just straight up don't work that way. In utopia, sure. But round here, shitty things happen and it takes a lot of struggle to change things.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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28-07-2012, 11:30 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(28-07-2012 04:42 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Bucky.

I don't think it's quite so dire. I don't think a little cock sucking is gonna bring down a 2 000 year old church. They can survive the change. They just aren't doing it. In the case of the Catholic church, I think it's just about inertia. It's only the US Christian right that's rabidly fighting it.

I agree that they need to give them their rights, but people don't just get rights. States issue the least rights possible, not the most.

I'm sure they will survive, in one form or another. I'm just stating why they are so inflexible about this, officially. It would be fun to get some funding, and go around the country, and document what exactly the advice one is given, in various locations, (both in the confessional, and face to face), as I know for sure, there is no monolithic opinion of the clergy on this.

States don't "issue rights". Rights come already cooked in the cereal box. ("endowed by their creator"). So they should not be "voting" on them at all. We already have rights. We agree to limit them, if necessary, to make society work.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-07-2012, 11:54 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(28-07-2012 11:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  States don't "issue rights". Rights come already cooked in the cereal box. ("endowed by their creator"). So they should not be "voting" on them at all. We already have rights. We agree to limit them, if necessary, to make society work.

Surely not. Rights are only an agreement. Right to free speech, right to life... they're just an agreement, that laws and so on will work on the principle that for example, all humans are equally entitled to life. Meaning that if a rich man kills a poor man it's still murder. If that was not asserted as a legal principle... all a right is is something on paper...

Or am I missing something?
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28-07-2012, 12:09 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(28-07-2012 11:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-07-2012 11:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  States don't "issue rights". Rights come already cooked in the cereal box. ("endowed by their creator"). So they should not be "voting" on them at all. We already have rights. We agree to limit them, if necessary, to make society work.

Surely not. Rights are only an agreement. Right to free speech, right to life... they're just an agreement, that laws and so on will work on the principle that for example, all humans are equally entitled to life. Meaning that if a rich man kills a poor man it's still murder. If that was not asserted as a legal principle... all a right is is something on paper...

Or am I missing something?

Well, actually we are both not entirely correct. There are "natural rights", (inalienable rights), and there are "legal" rights. I have a right to what is reasonable, and human rights are inherent to being human. They do not obtain after an agreement is made. You have the right to life, before it's decided what form of life-taking is legal, and before the agreement is made. The Declaration on Human Rights of the UN, states this rather clearly. Marriage seems that it would be a "natural" right. As you say, there are also legal rights bestowed by agreements.

"Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,"

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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29-07-2012, 07:58 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
Hey, Bucky.

The rights thing is it's own thread. The idea of inalienable human rights is a fantasy in the sense that of course everyone should have rights, but that's not how our system works. Our system doesn't limit rights, it begins with the premise that we have none and then states which ones we do have. If they don't state it, we don't have it. The struggle between the power elites and the ruled is that the elites are always trying to reduce our rights and we're always trying to add to them. Think about it this way. You will never in your life see state-sanctioned absolute freedom, but you might see a 100% revocation of rights. But like the saga of Conan the King, that is another story.

<Epic Basil Poledouris score>

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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29-07-2012, 07:51 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(29-07-2012 07:58 AM)Ghost Wrote:  The idea of inalienable human rights is a fantasy in the sense that of course everyone should have rights, but that's not how our system works. Our system doesn't limit rights, it begins with the premise that we have none and then states which ones we do have.

Some people confuse "rights" with "realities". Perhaps due to an absence in that ethic of an absolute "rightness". If that ethical view is accepted, then the word "right" as an abstract thing to which you are entitled, is nonsense. In that case, in such an ethic, no one ever has any cause to complain when they are inconvenienced, or even killed. For that matter, why would anything matter at all on any level? But I digress...

Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by the law of a particular political and legal system, and therefore relative to specific cultures and governments.

Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable.
These are rights that can only be transferred with the consent of the person possessing those rights.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

It's really about declaring that one does indeed have rights... and inevitably, therefore, power.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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29-07-2012, 08:28 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(29-07-2012 07:51 PM)kim Wrote:  
(29-07-2012 07:58 AM)Ghost Wrote:  The idea of inalienable human rights is a fantasy in the sense that of course everyone should have rights, but that's not how our system works. Our system doesn't limit rights, it begins with the premise that we have none and then states which ones we do have.

Some people confuse "rights" with "realities". Perhaps due to an absence in that ethic of an absolute "rightness". If that ethical view is accepted, then the word "right" as an abstract thing to which you are entitled, is nonsense. In that case, in such an ethic, no one ever has any cause to complain when they are inconvenienced, or even killed. For that matter, why would anything matter at all on any level? But I digress...

Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by the law of a particular political and legal system, and therefore relative to specific cultures and governments.

Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable.
These are rights that can only be transferred with the consent of the person possessing those rights.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

It's really about declaring that one does indeed have rights... and inevitably, therefore, power.

While I like the idea of natural rights, I don't think they exist.
In the end, we have to agree on what are our inalienable rights and what are our legal rights. It is always a social/political construct.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-07-2012, 11:45 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
I'll respond to your guys comments a bit later but just wanted to post this little gem.

This is from 3news, one of the two major news stations here.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Opinion-Why-Key-b...fault.aspx

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Now with 40% more awesome.
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30-07-2012, 12:02 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(29-07-2012 11:45 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I'll respond to your guys comments a bit later but just wanted to post this little gem.

This is from 3news, one of the two major news stations here.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Opinion-Why-Key-b...fault.aspx

This made me smile:
"If they want to get married, I say let them suffer like the rest of us"

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30-07-2012, 05:21 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(27-07-2012 09:52 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Me not being anything like myself kept my mouth shut simply because I really can't be bothered with the backlash if I was to open my mouth and rip into this cunt.
...

I didn't even open my mouth, I deserve a medal, that right there people is will power.


Yep, you definitely deserved a medal for this, as I would throw them all throughout the window. Also, you deserve a couple of other medals for being able to live with fucktards like your flatmates...

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We can all be like this right soldier, but ears is the one on the left...

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Cool

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