Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
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30-07-2012, 08:55 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
As others said, I feel the church has the right to deny gay marriage in their church. But just in their church, not a civil wedding. The state, if democratic and civilized, shouldn't care who wants to go into a legal bonding of this kind.

Once again I feel Norway is the odd one out, we have priests and even a bishop I think demanding to be allowed to marry gay people...
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30-07-2012, 12:19 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
Hey, Sillinde.

I'm still not sold on the idea that they can ban it internally. If that's OK, then is it OK for a golf course to not allow black people (note, there are still golf courses in the world that Tiger Woods, one of the best/biggest players of all time, is not allowed setting foot on)? Is it OK for a gentleman's club to not allow women? I don't know where the line is drawn between freedom and protecting against discrimination.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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30-07-2012, 01:42 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
This is my problem with it too. A church is a public service open to the community, similar to a shop. Shops aren't allowed to discriminate, why should churches be exempt? Also, it's fukken ugly Angry Human nature is so shitty sometimes.
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30-07-2012, 02:37 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(30-07-2012 12:19 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Sillinde.

I'm still not sold on the idea that they can ban it internally. If that's OK, then is it OK for a golf course to not allow black people (note, there are still golf courses in the world that Tiger Woods, one of the best/biggest players of all time, is not allowed setting foot on)? Is it OK for a gentleman's club to not allow women? I don't know where the line is drawn between freedom and protecting against discrimination.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Well, thing is, it's their church. My freedom to express myself should not limit their freedom to express themselves. They might be bigots and I might not like it, but I tolerate it because of the fundemental principle behind it. That it's their private church and I don't see why I should be allowed to force them to wed me, likewise they shouldn't be allowed to force their way into my house to hold a sermon.

There's laws against racial discrimination, mostly due to americans (norwegians had slaves way way back as well, but they were white...and christian). But yes, there's alot of places that discriminate and are fully in their right to do so. Dresscode, gender, height, you name it. But it's THEIR PLACE. Getting in is a privelige, not a right.
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30-07-2012, 03:01 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(27-07-2012 09:52 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  So gay marriage is in the media here after being drawn from a random ballot in parliament. I don't know if it will pass but we'll see. Might actually finally have a reason to go protest something...
And of course my fuckhead flatmate has an opinion on everything, and being rather heavily into all that religion crap it's pretty obvious where he stands on gay marriage.

So there we are sitting watching this on the 6o'clock news as always and he's flapping his gums about the abomination that is gay marriage. Me not being anything like myself kept my mouth shut simply because I really can't be bothered with the backlash if I was to open my mouth and rip into this cunt.
Anyway, he keeps going stating that it shouldn't be just gay marriage but any marriage shouldn't be considered a marriage unless it is done in and by the church.
I didn't even open my mouth, I deserve a medal, that right there people is will power.

He said that he believes marriage is a religious thing and such should be kept that way (note that this guy flips shit when people who aren't Christians 'celebrate' Christmas).

So this got me thinking, he may have a point. Why would a couple of gays want to get married into something that stems from the church, I mean afterall the church is not exactly rolling out the welcome mat.
But then I thought, nah, fuck ya.

Marriage was before religion. Tribes in Africa, Asia, Ancient Greece, Rome (before it decided to adopt Yagei), all over the world even before the existence of 'god'.
Catholicism, Christianity etc.. whatever just adopted it and decided to make it a 'sacred' thing to them.
But this doesn't mean marriage belongs to them.
Worshiping/Praying was adopted by Catholicism and whatever too, does that mean prayer belongs to the pope????

So what does this all mean? Well why the fuck is gay marriage illegal? If marriage and the church are separate then is it not an obvious breach of basic human rights?
Why is it that religion is playing such a role in something that effects secular society and has nothing to do with the church?

I assume that you are referring to NZ in your post, i have been desperately trying to get as many people as possible to write to their local MP to convince them to vote in favor of homosexual marriage in NZ. But i always get angry whenever a news piece is done on the subject because they usually seem to interview Colin Craig, the bigoted conservative party leader, and whenever he opens his mouth on the subject i tend to start shouting at the TV, it annoys me that the NZ news media has yet to call Craig a religious bigot, he came up with the line that "There are no intelligent reasons to give homosexuals equal rights". NO Craig there are no intelligent reasons NOT to give homosexuals equal rights. NZ is ready for this, when a anti gay marriage website went up protesting this new law it got hacked to oblivion and its author sent hate mail, NZ is ready for this.

You cannot be both sane and well educated and disbelieve in evolution. The evidence is so strong that any sane, educated person has got to believe in evolution.
-Richard Dawkins
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30-07-2012, 04:42 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(29-07-2012 08:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-07-2012 07:51 PM)kim Wrote:  Some people confuse "rights" with "realities". Perhaps due to an absence in that ethic of an absolute "rightness". If that ethical view is accepted, then the word "right" as an abstract thing to which you are entitled, is nonsense. In that case, in such an ethic, no one ever has any cause to complain when they are inconvenienced, or even killed. For that matter, why would anything matter at all on any level? But I digress...

Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by the law of a particular political and legal system, and therefore relative to specific cultures and governments.

Natural rights are rights not contingent upon the laws, customs, or beliefs of any particular culture or government, and therefore universal and inalienable.
These are rights that can only be transferred with the consent of the person possessing those rights.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
— That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

It's really about declaring that one does indeed have rights... and inevitably, therefore, power.

While I like the idea of natural rights, I don't think they exist.
In the end, we have to agree on what are our inalienable rights and what are our legal rights. It is always a social/political construct.

Damn, I'm starting to sound like Ghost.Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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30-07-2012, 05:01 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(30-07-2012 02:37 PM)sillinde Wrote:  
(30-07-2012 12:19 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Sillinde.

I'm still not sold on the idea that they can ban it internally. If that's OK, then is it OK for a golf course to not allow black people (note, there are still golf courses in the world that Tiger Woods, one of the best/biggest players of all time, is not allowed setting foot on)? Is it OK for a gentleman's club to not allow women? I don't know where the line is drawn between freedom and protecting against discrimination.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Well, thing is, it's their church. My freedom to express myself should not limit their freedom to express themselves. They might be bigots and I might not like it, but I tolerate it because of the fundemental principle behind it. That it's their private church and I don't see why I should be allowed to force them to wed me, likewise they shouldn't be allowed to force their way into my house to hold a sermon.

There's laws against racial discrimination, mostly due to americans (norwegians had slaves way way back as well, but they were white...and christian). But yes, there's alot of places that discriminate and are fully in their right to do so. Dresscode, gender, height, you name it. But it's THEIR PLACE. Getting in is a privelige, not a right.


One person's freedom is another person's bigotry
One person's political correctness is another person's chains

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30-07-2012, 08:36 PM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
Hey, Chas.

Quote:Ah, I remember when I first fell for me.

Great feeling,isn't it? Warm... right in your belly.

Right there, that's me.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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31-07-2012, 12:10 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(30-07-2012 03:01 PM)Runicmadhamster Wrote:  I assume that you are referring to NZ in your post, i have been desperately trying to get as many people as possible to write to their local MP to convince them to vote in favor of homosexual marriage in NZ. But i always get angry whenever a news piece is done on the subject because they usually seem to interview Colin Craig, the bigoted conservative party leader, and whenever he opens his mouth on the subject i tend to start shouting at the TV, it annoys me that the NZ news media has yet to call Craig a religious bigot, he came up with the line that "There are no intelligent reasons to give homosexuals equal rights". NO Craig there are no intelligent reasons NOT to give homosexuals equal rights. NZ is ready for this, when a anti gay marriage website went up protesting this new law it got hacked to oblivion and its author sent hate mail, NZ is ready for this.

Colin Craig is a fuckwit, but for some stupid reason they think that having him on the box will boost ratings and so there he is, showing what a short-sighted small minded little turd he is to the world.
If you don’t want gay marriage, then don’t have a gay wedding.

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. Friedrich Nietzsche
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31-07-2012, 12:19 AM
RE: Hey theists, marriage is not yours. kkthxbye.
(31-07-2012 12:10 AM)Karl Wrote:  Colin Craig is a fuckwit, but for some stupid reason they think that having him on the box will boost ratings and so there he is, showing what a short-sighted small minded little turd he is to the world.
If you don’t want gay marriage, then don’t have a gay wedding.


You know i used to post on a US forum with myself as the only Kiwi on the site, coming here a relief, finally i get to chat with other kiwis, anyway onto the debate.

Colin "bigot" Craig is using exactly the same anti homosexual tactics as the US religious right, "Homosexuality is a Choice" "We must protect marriage" "its not natural" ECT, the guy is a joke. He claimed he would use homosexual marriage as a issue for the next election, apparently he wants to loose the next election because if this homosexual marriage debate has shown my one thing about my fellow Kiwis is that they don't tolerate bigots, when the anti homosexual marriage website went up i got hacked and the author was sent hate mail. I mean that shows that that many kiwis will not put up with bigotry no matter what cloak it wears.

And i just saw a 3 news pieces stating that the bill should pass its fist reading. YESSSSSSS, this news makes me very happy to be a kiwi

You cannot be both sane and well educated and disbelieve in evolution. The evidence is so strong that any sane, educated person has got to believe in evolution.
-Richard Dawkins
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