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20-11-2012, 08:01 PM
RE: Hi
I often see myself in third-person view when I dream.

I also often dream about things I've seen in movies or read about or heard others talking about.

I imagine both of those things can and will likely happen when I'm dying - I will have a third-person view of myself lying wherever I am, I may see the tunnel and the light, I might hear an angelic choir, whatever. All because I've seen/read/heard about it so dang many times that I'll probably be dreaming about it as my brain dies.

Stupid thing to waste my last moments on.

Me, I hope I dream about Selma Hayek. That's not even a porn dream. She could just hold my hand and smile at me while I fade away. That'd be a great way to go.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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20-11-2012, 08:10 PM
RE: Hi
Dreaming about OBE's and being able to provide details of what actually happened in the operating room while unconscious suggests that perhaps there may be something other than a simple dream going on, how to explain it though is beyond me.
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20-11-2012, 08:11 PM
RE: Hi
Well the shared experience would be the chemical reaction on the brain. It would even back up the concept to have everyone have the same experience. Repeatable test results and all that.

Out of body experience is likely hallucination, which can be brought about by stress to the body or chemicals in the brain. I've never heard a claim of an out of body experience being backed by any credible evidence. If there was a claim where the claimant could reveal details of the surgery that was performed, that wouldn't be obvious without even being involved, I would be amazed. That might be something.

I am not saying there is no afterlife or anything like that. I don't personally know, but I also don't presume to know. I cast my shadow of doubt upon all such claims until they can be verified otherwise.

The world would benefit greatly from sharing that same outlook.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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20-11-2012, 08:20 PM
RE: Hi
I have not had time to read through all of this but you may find it interesting

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence02.html
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20-11-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: Hi
(20-11-2012 08:10 PM)Rum Wrote:  Dreaming about OBE's and being able to provide details of what actually happened in the operating room while unconscious suggests that perhaps there may be something other than a simple dream going on, how to explain it though is beyond me.
Maybe, but being unconscious on a table doesn't mean your ears stop working. Our dreams are heavily influenced by environmental things going on around us - I can't tell you how many times I've been dreaming about some kind of movie scene, my plane is about to crash and the warning buzzer is going off, or a bomb is ticking louder and about to explode, only to wake up and find that my alarm clock is ringing and my subconscious worked that into my dream.

Most of the OBE people who describe vivid visual imagery of hospital stuff are people who have watch a bunch of TV episodes with hospital stuff in them, or people who work in hospitals. They have a visual frame of reference. Most people who never watch hospital TV but have an OBE don't have visual imagery to describe, or their visual imagery is hazy or even wildly inaccurate. Most of the people who describe specific events are describing things that are verbally stated - doctors and nurses are very vocal about what they are doing to stabilize a crashing patient.

What would impress me much more is if someone were quietly dying in their own bed at home, and family members were silently filming their last minutes, nobody was talking. Then the person has an OBE but stabilizes and wakes up long enough to describe who was standing where, what they were wearing, etc. Maybe some relatives were in the kitchen making sandwiches, and the OBE included a trip to kitchen and the person could describe who was doing what, even out of their room and down the hall to the kitchen. Even that would be all explainable, so it would be cool if the person were actually blind (presumably his or her OBE spirit could see the gathered onlookers despite the living flesh being blind).

I suggest a book. Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer. There's a very interesting couple of chapters in there about this very thing. He compares it to alien abduction stories too, because those all have common themes, the aliens all look mostly the same, the abductions happen the same way, etc. He explains it with very simple evidence as to why, how, when, and where the alien abduction stories first started and how they all came to be so similar. The same thing applies to OBEs, though the origin is fuzzier but the outcome is the same. It's on Amazon and it's a good read.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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20-11-2012, 08:30 PM
RE: Hi
p.s. I hope you don't think I'm arguing with you or trying to beat you down. You're asking good questions and I'm trying to help you with answers.

I don't claim to know it all, quite the opposite in fact, but sometimes I come across as if I think I do. I cannot say for certain that there is no afterlife, or no god, but the amazing lack of evidence for both (amazing in that there is zero evidence despite billions of believers - compared with the very much not amazing lack of evidence for invisible pink unicorns, for which there is zero evidence but very nearly zero believers) makes them both questionable, and the ever increasing body of scientific knowledge (physics, cosmology, geology, biology, psychology, physiology, etc.) is piling up all kinds of rational, believable, and scientifically sound answers that don't rely on superstition.

Still, none of that so far has disproved god or the afterlife, and I certainly make no claim that those definitely don't exist. I will however, try to provide you with possible, even plausible, alternatives, especially when you ask for them.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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20-11-2012, 08:35 PM
RE: Hi
Unfortunately Dr. Moody relies entirely on anecdotal evidence. Not to be entirely discredited at all but as was stated previously all of his anecdotal evidence can be explained away using other more verified explanations. Like a blind woman being able to describe the clothing of those entering her room. Ears are fully functional, not to mention that the clothing of a surgeon might be fairly easy to predict. I'd go with some form of scrubs.

I'm not saying that she didn't have some sort of out of body experience. Might have been. But I wouldn't rely on anecdotal evidence, especially when at least 3/4 of experienced phenomenon can be explained by the chemicals flooding the brain. Not just explained but reproduced.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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20-11-2012, 09:08 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2012 09:11 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Hi
(20-11-2012 08:01 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  I often see myself in third-person view when I dream.

Shit, Girly often sees himself from the third person perspective when he's awake. I like it, it's good.

I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
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20-11-2012, 09:40 PM
RE: Hi
(20-11-2012 12:40 PM)Rum Wrote:  Hi folks, I recently had a little debate over the meaning of atheist over on another forum where I came to realize that my currently held beliefs were inaccurate. it seems the more I research the more I find myself aligned with the ideas of atheism.

I still probably hold some beliefs that may well be inaccurate so I will enjoy reading through the threads to see where the last vestiges of my beliefs will fall.

As I have always been fond of saying "Beliefs are fragile" they tend to change when you gain more knowledge.
Hello. Idiot theists make great idiot atheists.

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20-11-2012, 09:54 PM
RE: Hi
(20-11-2012 09:40 PM)The Theist Wrote:  
(20-11-2012 12:40 PM)Rum Wrote:  Hi folks, I recently had a little debate over the meaning of atheist over on another forum where I came to realize that my currently held beliefs were inaccurate. it seems the more I research the more I find myself aligned with the ideas of atheism.

I still probably hold some beliefs that may well be inaccurate so I will enjoy reading through the threads to see where the last vestiges of my beliefs will fall.

As I have always been fond of saying "Beliefs are fragile" they tend to change when you gain more knowledge.
Hello. Idiot theists make great idiot atheists.
And which are you ?
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