Hilarity then sadness
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29-08-2015, 07:30 AM
RE: Hilarity then sadness
(29-08-2015 07:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 01:52 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I can't help but wonder whether she is seeing cranks like Q and COTW and how they are treated without realizing that they have earned those responses over many, many posts. She sees the dishonest clowns and not folks like KC who are highly respected and also christian.

That's like a member of the tea party claiming he doesn't hate black people, because he likes Ben Carson, and Allen West.

I'm sort of teasing you here.

Quote: if she thinks that I hate christians and can't see that one can not like the theology but love the people.

When you say you love the people, does that include Q and COTW, or just the KC's of the world?

While I think hate is too strong of a word,I can't blame your wife for thinking atheist dislike the typical Christian, the same way liberals and conservatives tend not to like each other all that much. While that might not be true for you and many others here, it is the sort of impression more vocal atheists, the one's that get their 5 minutes of fame often give.

KC is one of my favorite people. His faith, and my lack thereof, is not the basis of our friendship.

Just like my dear friend IRL, Kimberly, we love each other unconditionally and can discuss religion just like we can discuss everything else. I don't care that she's Pentecostal and she doesn't care that I am an atheist and former Catholic. We like one another for too many other things to let belief or non spoil it.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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29-08-2015, 07:35 AM
RE: Hilarity then sadness
(29-08-2015 07:15 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  To be fair -- xtians are not the only ones who get offended when you laugh at their delusions.....

Comic-con is full of people who'd get their panties in a bunch if you talk bad about Darth Vader, Superman or Captain Kirk....
'

I feel you, I laugh when people get their panties in a bunch too.

Like these two:









You know that's funny?
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29-08-2015, 07:39 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 07:45 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Hilarity then sadness
(29-08-2015 07:30 AM)Anjele Wrote:  KC is one of my favorite people. His faith, and my lack thereof, is not the basis of our friendship.

Just like my dear friend IRL, Kimberly, we love each other unconditionally and can discuss religion just like we can discuss everything else. I don't care that she's Pentecostal and she doesn't care that I am an atheist and former Catholic. We like one another for too many other things to let belief or non spoil it.

Do you think KC, and IRL, Kimberly represent a minority of religious people? Or do you think most religious folks are like them? Or more on the Q, COTW end?

How about the internet? Do you think most theists that pop up here, are on the Q, COTW end, or the KC end? Would you say the KC types are more outliers than the norm?

I can understand why you like them, irrespective of their religious beliefs. Just like I can understand why conservatives like S.E. Cupp even though she's an atheist. But I'm more curious about whether you think they are an accurate representative of the general religious population.
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29-08-2015, 08:09 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 10:58 AM by Anjele.)
RE: Hilarity then sadness
(29-08-2015 07:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 07:30 AM)Anjele Wrote:  KC is one of my favorite people. His faith, and my lack thereof, is not the basis of our friendship.

Just like my dear friend IRL, Kimberly, we love each other unconditionally and can discuss religion just like we can discuss everything else. I don't care that she's Pentecostal and she doesn't care that I am an atheist and former Catholic. We like one another for too many other things to let belief or non spoil it.

Do you think KC, and IRL, Kimberly represent a minority of religious people? Or do you think most religious folks are like them? Or more on the Q, COTW end?

How about the internet? Do you think most theists that pop up here, are on the Q, COTW end, or the KC end? Would you say the KC types are more outliers than the norm?

I can understand why you like them, irrespective of their religious beliefs. Just like I can understand why conservatives like S.E. Cupp even though she's an atheist. But I'm more curious about whether you think they are an accurate representative of the general religious population.

It's the zealots who think that everyone should share in their beliefs who bother me. I do not think KC and Kimberly are in the minority. Those who show up here and rant and rave and belittle are of the WBC type and they get what they give, for the most part.

On this forum, it's the loud, abusive theists who won't answer a question and who bob and weave at every turn that give the 'normal' theists who wander in more of a obstacle to overcome. We, perhaps, due to the constant barrage of these people are not as welcoming to theists who just want to interact.

I get the concept that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but the theists who come here for the sole purpose of belittling atheists and who simply won't listen to answers that don't include 'god did it' are not welcome. The aren't here to interact, they are here to preach.

I don't enter someone else's house and expect them to conform to my ways. I expect the same respect from those who enter here to talk about their beliefs.

Yes, we can be moral, decent people. No, most of us don't hate god...but some of his followers are suspect. Atheists are people with lives, families, jobs, interests, talents, struggles, and joys...just like everyone else.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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29-08-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: Hilarity then sadness
(29-08-2015 07:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote: if she thinks that I hate christians and can't see that one can not like the theology but love the people.

When you say you love the people, does that include Q and COTW, or just the KC's of the world?

He didn't say he loved all Christians. He knows many and loves some.

Quote:While I think hate is too strong of a word,I can't blame your wife for thinking atheist dislike the typical Christian, the same way liberals and conservatives tend not to like each other all that much. While that might not be true for you and many others here, it is the sort of impression more vocal atheists, the one's that get their 5 minutes of fame often give.

No. the typical Christians are generally inoffensive. It is the atypical ones who show up here. Their beliefs deserve mockery, and some of them deserve mockery and condemnation as people because they are, themselves, hateful and irrational.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-08-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: Hilarity then sadness
Message to Mrs. Chemist ...

I think you have shown good taste in mate selection ... wisdom, eloquence and lack of hate.

Thumbsup

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29-08-2015, 09:56 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 10:47 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Hilarity then sadness
(29-08-2015 07:10 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 01:52 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I can't help but wonder whether she is seeing cranks like Q and COTW and how they are treated without realizing that they have earned those responses over many, many posts. She sees the dishonest clowns and not folks like KC who are highly respected and also christian.

That's like a member of the tea party claiming he doesn't hate black people, because he likes Ben Carson, and Allen West.

I'm sort of teasing you here.

Yes, but you're sort of not. You need to take into account that The Organic Chemist is married to a Christian, as are many of us, and I am engaged to one. We get that "I have a friend who is _____" is something often said by people who have racist/homophobic/etc views, but when we're choosing to marry people of the Christian faith, or stay married to them when they convert, etc., it should make it pretty clear that we aren't hateful of Christians, only disdainful of particular belief-structures that can result from certain types of Christianity. If you'll notice, we focus on three main things:

1) Contempt for science and/or science-based knowledge.
2) Religious intrusions onto legal or social elements of our lives.
3) Forwarding incorrect assertions or misleading strawmen about what we think, and refusing to address us as respectfully as one would address their fellow religionists (e.g. refusing to answer questions, or acknowledge when questions slung our way have been answered, repeating things already debunked, etc.) but insisting that we are bad people because we get hostile with those who show us such disrespect.

Category 1 is the one in which I am most likely to engage, because of my biology background, but in category 3, I particularly get annoyed by the ones who assert that we "have a belief" when we reject Jehovah/YHWH, trying to make atheism into a religion, but not acknowledging that they are just as much an atheist with respect to Jupiter and Zeus. Whenever confronted with that question, I always ask "why are you an atheist toward Zeus?", and the only answer I've ever gotten, years ago, was "because I believe the Bible", which is of course not really an answer. Every other person I've asked has ignored me. (I'm not asking now, just explaining.)

We spend our whole lives surrounded by what is to us (and to most honest, well-educated, thinking Christians) astounding levels of active ignorance, and we come here to vent about it and seek social support, since there's little in the way of "atheist community" outside the web. When we come here, and theists follow us in with the same crap we fled from in the real world (but in an even more hostile version), we can get pretty hostile in return. But it doesn't mean we hate people who believe because of their beliefs.

(29-08-2015 06:26 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  When you say you love the people, does that include Q and COTW, or just the KC's of the world?

While I think hate is too strong of a word,I can't blame your wife for thinking atheist dislike the typical Christian, the same way liberals and conservatives tend not to like each other all that much. While that might not be true for you and many others here, it is the sort of impression more vocal atheists, the one's that get their 5 minutes of fame often give.

KC and his brother sound like pretty awesome guys. They're smart, they're honest, and they're well-educated about science. They don't look down on me for not being a Christian. They don't expect me to become a Christian, though they hope I do as much as I hope they give up Christianity. Therefore there is no rancor. Indeed, I kinda hope to visit them one of the times I'm visiting my folks in Louisiana (though I don't get down to Baton Rouge much).

In contrast, people like Q and COTW don't bother to really learn science, they repeatedly throw strawman versions of both science and atheism at us and then contemptuously ignore when we point out how they have presented strawman arguments, and repeat the wrong version yet again. They play psychological manipulation games, like the "victim card", even as they call atheists all kinds of names (putting it into polite phrasing doesn't make it nice; "Bless your heart" still means "you're a special kind of stupid" in Southern Christianese, for instance) or blatantly use logical fallacies to "argue" with us, then declare victory based on the fallacy by refusing to acknowledge it.

Now how should we feel about such people? I don't mind a good debate. Honest evaluation of our positions is a basic tenet of a skeptic's mindset, but we also (many/most of us) come from religious backgrounds, and we recognize when they are just here to try to take advantage of that intellectual honesty on our part to "score points for Jesus", knowing that we will acknowledge when they (finally!) make a good point, but they will not afford us the same respect because their beliefs are encased in concrete, impervious to reason. What they don't get is that we know what they're doing, and will call them out on it--- at which point they go right back to their Martyr Complex and start screaming victim for the benefit of people watching. "Oooooooh those mean ol' atheists!! Ohhhhh, Christians under attack!!" Rolleyes

Here on this thread alone, you should be able to see numerous examples of the horrible things (immoral! satanic! evil! misguided! willful! eternal torment!) said to us by family members and important people in our social circles, cruel rejection when we're just trying to reasonably and lovingly present our cases, and attempts by the religious to destroy our lives by ruining important relationships and/or our psychological health. Dozens and dozens of such posts have emerged just since I joined the site.

I am sorry this is so long, but you really, REALLY need to understand this from our point of view. When you advance the "you hate Christians" narrative, you are joining in the attack against us that we face every day of our lives. If you cannot understand why we treat the Christian apologists (and aggressive missionaries) here the way we do, while liking guys like Zoebion and KC who actually show us respect and decency, then you are in the category who deserve and will receive our contempt. I go out of my way to be nice to everyone on this earth, as do most of the really nice folks here (we have a few jerks; all sites do), but no way in Hades will I stand by and tolerate being openly disrespected and abused on my favorite haven of a website.

(Edited to correct a major spelling error that altered the sentence's meaning.)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-08-2015, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 10:43 AM by Banjo.)
RE: Hilarity then sadness
Well said RocketSurgeon!

It should be understood also that many of us having been dealing with this, to varying degrees, for decades. I am currently in my 4th decade of what I believe to be rational thinking. Trying to expand my limited education and getting involved with debates with religious people.

Of course unlike my American cousins I have not had to put up with Xianity to such a huge degree. But the movement of the Christian right is growing in my country and I see it as a threat to freedom. Not just to my own freedom, but to that of many people who hold differing views to whatever Christian denomination comes out on top. That these threats from Christians to Christians and non believers dates back to the days of Constantine the great means they are serious indeed.

It should be noted that as Christians fail to unite under a common banner, while each claiming to possess the "truth", and then coming here to argue against science, it is difficult for them to be taken seriously. Especially by people who take rationality so seriously. As do the members here.

One tries to be patient. But it is often not easy when someone shows up, states "This vague idea or belief" gets questioned on it and then gets upset when unable to support it.....

I do not hate Xians, but I do hate the system. And in all honesty I think most Xians may feel the same were they as knowledgeable about the subject as many of us. One asks a straight question and gets a strawman or silence at the other end. Bucky showed this clearly with Heywood recently when Heywood asked a straight question, Bucky supplied the answer, complete with documentation to support it, and Heywood never acknowledged it and indeed never returned to the thread! And it was Heywood's thread! Big Grin

This is an atheist forum. We are not the ones trolling.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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29-08-2015, 12:12 PM
RE: Hilarity then sadness
(29-08-2015 10:38 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Well said RocketSurgeon!

It should be understood also that many of us having been dealing with this, to varying degrees, for decades. I am currently in my 4th decade of what I believe to be rational thinking. Trying to expand my limited education and getting involved with debates with religious people.

Of course unlike my American cousins I have not had to put up with Xianity to such a huge degree. But the movement of the Christian right is growing in my country and I see it as a threat to freedom. Not just to my own freedom, but to that of many people who hold differing views to whatever Christian denomination comes out on top. That these threats from Christians to Christians and non believers dates back to the days of Constantine the great means they are serious indeed.

It should be noted that as Christians fail to unite under a common banner, while each claiming to possess the "truth", and then coming here to argue against science, it is difficult for them to be taken seriously. Especially by people who take rationality so seriously. As do the members here.

One tries to be patient. But it is often not easy when someone shows up, states "This vague idea or belief" gets questioned on it and then gets upset when unable to support it.....

I do not hate Xians, but I do hate the system. And in all honesty I think most Xians may feel the same were they as knowledgeable about the subject as many of us. One asks a straight question and gets a strawman or silence at the other end. Bucky showed this clearly with Heywood recently when Heywood asked a straight question, Bucky supplied the answer, complete with documentation to support it, and Heywood never acknowledged it and indeed never returned to the thread! And it was Heywood's thread! Big Grin

This is an atheist forum. We are not the ones trolling.

Exactly, I don't hate Christians because in many cases they are well-meaning. There are some Christians that spew hate as they believe they are directed by their Bible to do so. However, I will say that most Christians I know have the mindset that God is love and they try to "live like Jesus" in a way that would make God proud. Some of them are okay with same sex or interfaith marriages and some are not. Some are okay with sex before marriage and some are not. Some are okay with secular music/movies and some are not. Some are okay with atheists and some are not. It seems like each person kind of bends religion to suit their own personal belief system--whether it's supported by the Bible or not, imo.

There are also Christians who are able to balance science and religion (I personally have trouble understanding how they can do this, but I do know many intelligent Christians who do).

All that said, there are definitely some hateful churches that are extremely controlling of their members and skilled at ruling through fear. Are all churches like this--no definitely not. But the ones that are will tell you that the people from the other churches who don't live the correct kind of life are going to hell.
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