Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
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01-03-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
(01-03-2016 04:39 PM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Can somebody tell me exactly how Trump is going to convince Mexico to build a 12 foot high wall for him? What, is he gonna try economic sanctions on them; invade them? The UN and NATO isn't gonna like either of it.

Yeah he's basically said it's harming the trade wealth via sanctions is his plan.

Yet he also called it low for this nation to apparently try to use power in their hand against him.. because you know, it needs to be fair policy where only one side gets to proclaim negative remarks about your character.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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01-03-2016, 09:02 PM (This post was last modified: 01-03-2016 09:06 PM by Hobbitgirl.)
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
Vousr man. You're obsessing. Deep breath.
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02-03-2016, 02:58 AM
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
(01-03-2016 04:39 PM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Can somebody tell me exactly how Trump is going to convince Mexico to build a 12 foot high wall for him? What, is he gonna try economic sanctions on them; invade them? The UN and NATO isn't gonna like either of it.

I went into some detail with Vosur about this. Forgive me for quoting myself:

(31-01-2016 01:40 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(30-01-2016 05:47 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You're wrong. Trump does say how he intends to make Mexico pay for the wall on his website. You'll find a lot of information about his policies in general there.

Actually, that's exactly where I went to make sure I got my reply right. Here's what he says there:

Trump Wrote:Mexico must pay for the wall and, until they do, the United States will, among other things: impound all remittance payments derived from illegal wages; increase fees on all temporary visas issued to Mexican CEOs and diplomats (and if necessary cancel them); increase fees on all border crossing cards – of which we issue about 1 million to Mexican nationals each year (a major source of visa overstays); increase fees on all NAFTA worker visas from Mexico (another major source of overstays); and increase fees at ports of entry to the United States from Mexico [Tariffs and foreign aid cuts are also options]. We will not be taken advantage of anymore.

None of those methods will assure that Mexico pays for any wall. He wants to "impound" illegal remittances? How, exactly, will he have the government determine their legality? He doesn't say how much he expects that measure to net. How much money comes from fees for border-crossing cards? Taking Trump's figures of 1 million issued to Mexico multiplied by $160 per card we get $160 million. Temporary visas, for Mexican CEOs and NAFTA workers $190 each, can't be bringing in very much money -- maximum $190 million assuming every border-crossing card issued per above goes to one of these catgories; and diplomats are not charged that fee at all [see previous link]. Tariffs against Mexico are illegal per the NAFTA agreement, which has the force of law under the US Constitution, meaning that if he wishes to impose them he will have to denounce that treaty, with the foreign-policy ramifications such a measure entails (this includes Canada). And cutting foreign aid to Mexico, which goes to help fight narcotraficantes, will only increase the instability of our southern neighbor, which will almost certainly drive up the numbers attempting to flee here.

CNN estimates that the wall he proposes would cost between $15 and $25 billion. Trump doesn't say how much he would boost these fees, nor does he say how he'd get Congress to denounce NAFTA, nor how he would ascertain the legality of outgoing remittances.

So as you can see, he put together a list of actions that he'd take to finance his wall, but we see upon further inspection that this is horseshit. It takes a little digging to look past the smoke-and-mirrors, and I certainly don't expect you to take the time to do it given that you're not a citizen or resident of the US, but if you're going to go around plumping for this guy, it's best to do a little research. Talking points do not a sound policy make.
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02-03-2016, 04:35 AM
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
Vosur, don't let anyone ever sell you their social approval at the cost of your desire to express that which you genuinely believe. Those who would ask "what happened to you?" are just using a shame tactic; they want you to come toe the party line with them once again; to come back to the groupthink. The green numbers never were an alluring bribe for me, personally. Question everything, but know that the path of skepticism is a lonely one.

If you want atheists without the extreme-leftist bias; I'd recommend AF.org. It's still there, yeah, because most atheists, also being human, are going to hold biases. But I distinctly remember their user-base being more diverse in world-view, and less prone to bullying for the cause. Then again they did ban me.

Also tumblr can be nice for debating politics, especially as it pertains to PC culture/SJW's/Feminism.
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02-03-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
(01-03-2016 08:34 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Add to that the claims that him and his supporters are racists, xenophobes, fascists, misogynists and the comparisons of him and his voter base to Hitler and Nazis respectively... Why indeed would a native German be cranky about this?

You specifically might not be any of those things. Trump voters individually might not be any/all of those things. The problem is, the supporters are being compared to the candidate they're supporting. The guy is flat-out, on record:
  • Prima facie calling Hispanic illegal immigrants rapists and murderers.
  • Complaining about immigration on a whole, and not just illegal immigrants.
  • Saying a woman must have been having her period because she upset him.
  • Focusing on a female candidates looks over her stances (both in hinting that she's ugly, then backpeddling and saying she's beautiful).
  • Wanting to block entire classes of citizens from entering/living in the country.
  • Supporting the use force to silence protesters.
This isn't hyperbole or careful editing. This is the guy's own words. That is racism, xenophobia, fascism, and misogyny. This isn't some clever smear; it's listening to what the guy says and evaluating it.

If your complaint isn't that Trump is called these things, but that his supporters are, that is an honest stance. Just because they support a guy who is on record for being all of those things doesn't mean that they are, individually any/all of those things. It just means they support a guy who is.
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02-03-2016, 08:47 AM
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
(02-03-2016 04:35 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Those who would ask "what happened to you?" are just using a shame tactic;

No, we're not. It is an honest question.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-03-2016, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 10:05 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
(01-03-2016 11:58 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(01-03-2016 11:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Cry me a fucking river. If some celebrity blowhard running for office in the EU had detractors comparing him to the KKK, I wouldn't give a flying fuck, let alone care enough to be butt-hurt on a web forum over someone else taking the piss out of them.
I care because the US just can't keep staying out of the business of other countries. If Hillary Clinton becomes president, it will have a negative effect on the rest of the world, including Europe.


Please enlighten me Vosur as to the rules that govern the alternate reality you live in.

What exactly are you so sure Clinton will do, and Trump otherwise will not, that will so endanger you and all of Europe? And how can you be even remotely certain of that, given Trump's propensity to flip on issues, seemingly just feeling out whatever is most convenient for him at any given time?

I mean, as of right now, you sound like a street corner doomsayer.

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(01-03-2016 11:58 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(01-03-2016 11:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  This is the point when I would feel obliged to tell you that observing that fascists, racists, and misogynists do make up a loud part of the fanbase Trump is pandering too, doesn't exclude others outside those categories from supporting him. I'd have thought you were smart enough to have already realized this. Guess I was wrong.
Here you go again with the condescension.


Which, lets be honest here, you're asking for it at this point Mr. Bear.



(01-03-2016 11:58 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Yes, Chas and the others simply observed, in a calm and rational manner, that some of Trump's support base is made up of those demographics... except that's not what happened. I suggest you read all those threads again if that's what you genuinely believe.


Do I look like I fucking care? At all? Is the point I raised at all invalided by what anyone else says? No, it is not. Your personal inability to logic yourself out of a wet paper bag has fuck all to do with what anybody else said, and you're smart enough know that.

There is nothing you or Trump could say now, in light of what I've already seen and heard, that could convince me to vote for him. So I've had little to no interest in any of your, or anyone else's (lest I be accused of singling you out, for fuck's sake...) pro-Trump rally threads. All I've seen is that you've made a lot of them, and I thought it would be funny to poke the bear a bit. I don't care about what other people have said or posted, I just made a joke at your expense; and I've only continued to reply because of the incredible level of both defensiveness and unreasonableness you've directed back at me.

Had you not responded to my post, that literally would have been the end of it, full stop. I made my joke, had my fun, and I'm out. Hell if you could have come back with something even half as clever as insinuating date-night oral sex, I'd have laughed with you. If you'd have 'liked' my post and responded with a 'thanks for the mental image asshole', you'd have come out on top! But holy shit, you instead opted for irrational, defensive, overreaction. The sad part is, I don't even care. You can have whatever opinion you want, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Why? Because you can't vote in this election. You couldn't have a dog in this fight if you wanted to.

So go ahead, stump for whoever you want. But I'm not going to curtain my own pithy attempts at amusing myself and others with humor just because you can't take a fucking joke.

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03-03-2016, 08:07 AM
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
(02-03-2016 04:35 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Vosur, don't let anyone ever sell you their social approval at the cost of your desire to express that which you genuinely believe. Those who would ask "what happened to you?" are just using a shame tactic; they want you to come toe the party line with them once again; to come back to the groupthink. The green numbers never were an alluring bribe for me, personally. Question everything, but know that the path of skepticism is a lonely one.

If you want atheists without the extreme-leftist bias; I'd recommend AF.org. It's still there, yeah, because most atheists, also being human, are going to hold biases. But I distinctly remember their user-base being more diverse in world-view, and less prone to bullying for the cause. Then again they did ban me.

Also tumblr can be nice for debating politics, especially as it pertains to PC culture/SJW's/Feminism.

Dude don't do that. Social media are the worst place to have debates, let alone debate on serious, complicated, philosophicaly heavy and sensitive issues like sexism, racism and classism. Social media platform have no rules to limit intervention, referee the debates and is vastly populated by people with very little knowledge or training to debate efficently and rationnaly about those subject. They allow only to express one's opinion, not exchange ideas in the hope to learn or convince. That's the job for encyclopedia, good quality blog and well moderated specialised forums. A debate on social media is more likely to be a shout match between to barely competant debater in a disorganised setting with a vox populi going on at the same time. Stick to discussions about hobbies and funny cats on social media, carry your desire to debate on important issues where they belong, stay polite and respectful and you will make the internet world a much better place.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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03-03-2016, 10:03 AM
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
(01-03-2016 01:47 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Another TTA user - thecontemplator - made even more threads about Trump than I did, yet nobody, including Full Circle, accused him of being a shill or spamming. I wonder why that is. Consider

And he has been asked to stop making so many new threads about it, as well. We do see the creation of multiple threads on the same topic within a short time as spamming here, as you well know.

I wonder, too, what happened to you. Not because you suddenly love Trump, but because you just don't seem to react the way you used to. It's like a drastic personality change. Whazzup, Vos?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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03-03-2016, 10:37 AM
RE: Hillary could lose to Trump in Democratic New York
(01-03-2016 11:58 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(01-03-2016 11:15 AM)cjlr Wrote:  You... you know there's a difference between "actually, those comparisons aren't accurate" on the one hand, and "NO FUCK YOU HE'S GREAT" on the other?
I get that patronizing hyperbole is your preferred type of response, but I've seen it too many times in the past few years to be affected by it. Go troll someone else.

It's interesting how it's only ever trolling when someone who has by and large agreed with me on things for years takes offence to my less than perfect congruence of views on their particular pet issue.

Funny, that.

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