"Hitler was elected democratically"
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17-05-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
Godwin wrote no law, just a bald assertion.
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17-05-2017, 07:22 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(17-05-2017 09:20 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  
(17-05-2017 08:56 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Hitler never won a single election to public office. The claim that Hitler was elected is 100% false. Hitler was appointed Chancellor.

The NaZis certainly used thuggery during the various elections before 1933, and during the plebiscites after that date. The NaZis were for a time the largest party in the Reichstag, but even so didn't hold a majority.

Wasn't it that the Nazi party, as a political party, got voted in and he took over them at a later date?

No. He took them over after a squabble with the northern branch, Goebbels at the head, in the late 20s. At the time they had some Reichstag seats but weren't major players.

By 1932, the NaZis had agglomerated about 40% of the Reichstag seats, making them the largest party in that body. That gave them some footing, and with Hitler already their leader, he was able to angle into Hindenburg's appointment by acquiescing to having 3 non-NaZis in his eleven-man cabinet. He had Goering appointed head of the Prussian state police, and thus was able to quash his largest enemies on the left.
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17-05-2017, 11:29 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2017 11:47 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(17-05-2017 06:20 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Hitler was elected President of Germany on August 19, 1934, after his appointment as Chancellor. Source: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-histo...of-germany

Quote:Hitler had Roem executed without trial, which encouraged the army and other reactionary forces within the country to urge Hitler to further consolidate his power by merging the presidency and the chancellorship. This would make Hitler commander of the army as well. A plebiscite vote was held on August 19. Intimidation, and fear of the communists, brought Hitler a 90 percent majority. He was now, for all intents and purposes, dictator.

[Emphasis added -- Thump]

A plebiscite is not an election. In this particular case, the plebiscite was held after the action, seeking the approval of the citizenry after the decision was already made. It was, in other words, pro forma; the decision was made 2 Aug 1934, and the plebiscite was held more than two weeks later approving it.

An election is where the people actually select the government that will exercise power, before those candidates actually wield power which (coincidentally) might be used to steer any plebiscite.

I stand by my original statement: Hitler was never elected. By 1934 he already had the tools of state power to steer the vote. Without trying to be disrespectful, I think you might wish to dig deeper into this if you want to draw parallels between then and now.
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18-05-2017, 01:06 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(17-05-2017 11:29 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(17-05-2017 06:20 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Hitler was elected President of Germany on August 19, 1934, after his appointment as Chancellor. Source: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-histo...of-germany

Quote:Hitler had Roem executed without trial, which encouraged the army and other reactionary forces within the country to urge Hitler to further consolidate his power by merging the presidency and the chancellorship. This would make Hitler commander of the army as well. A plebiscite vote was held on August 19. Intimidation, and fear of the communists, brought Hitler a 90 percent majority. He was now, for all intents and purposes, dictator.

[Emphasis added -- Thump]

A plebiscite is not an election. In this particular case, the plebiscite was held after the action, seeking the approval of the citizenry after the decision was already made. It was, in other words, pro forma; the decision was made 2 Aug 1934, and the plebiscite was held more than two weeks later approving it.

An election is where the people actually select the government that will exercise power, before those candidates actually wield power which (coincidentally) might be used to steer any plebiscite.

I stand by my original statement: Hitler was never elected. By 1934 he already had the tools of state power to steer the vote. Without trying to be disrespectful, I think you might wish to dig deeper into this if you want to draw parallels between then and now.

Correct Thumbsup
Hindenburg dies on August, 2nd. One day earlier (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Hitler issued a law:

Translation of the bolded parts:
"Law about head of the state of the Reich
The office of Kanzler and Präsident are going to be merged. Following this, the powers of the Präsident will fall to the Führer and Kanzler. He is going to appoint his deputy
This law is in effect at death of Präsident Hindenburg (one day later!)".


Quote:Gesetz über das Staatsoberhaupt des Deutschen Reichs.

Vom 1. August 1934.




Die Reichsregierung hat das folgende Gesetz beschlossen, das hiermit verkündet wird:

§ 1

Das Amt des Reichspräsidenten wird mit dem des Reichskanzlers vereinigt. Infolgedessen gehen die bisherigen Befugnisse des Reichspräsidenten auf den Führer und Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler über. Er bestimmt seinen Stellvertreter.

§ 2

Dieses Gesetz tritt mit Wirkung von dem Zeitpunkt des Ablebens des Reichspräsidenten von Hindenburg in Kraft.[1]


Berlin, den 1. August 1934.


Der Reichskanzler
Adolf Hitler

Der Stellvertreter des Reichskanzlers
von Papen
Der Reichspostminister und Reichsverkehrsminister
Frhr. v. Eltz
Der Reichsminister des Auswärtigen
Freiherr von Neurath
Der Reichsminister für Ernährung und Landwirtschaft
R. Walther Darré
Der Reichsminister des Innern
Frick
Der Reichsminister für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda
Dr. Goebbels
Der Reichsminister der Finanzen
Graf Schwerin von Krosigk
Der Reichsminister der Luftfahrt
Hermann Göring
Der Reichsarbeitsminister
Franz Seldte
Der Reichsminister für Wissenschaft, Erziehung und Volksbildung
Bernhard Rust
Der Reichsminister der Justiz
Dr. Gürtner
Der Reichsminister ohne Geschäftsbereich
Rudolf Heß
Der Reichswehrminister
von Blomberg
Der Reichsminister ohne Geschäftbereich
Hanns Kerrl

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18-05-2017, 01:09 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(17-05-2017 06:20 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Hitler was elected President of Germany on August 19, 1934, after his appointment as Chancellor. Source: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-histo...of-germany

Oh yes, the hystery channel.

Let's leave it at never elected democratically. 1934 the nazis were already the only party. And a plebiszit isn't an election. Apart from the fact that an approval rate above 90 percent points in the direction of the poll being rigged. Which it was of course.

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18-05-2017, 02:39 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(17-05-2017 11:29 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Without trying to be disrespectful, I think you might wish to dig deeper into this if you want to draw parallels between then and now.

The only parallels being that people tend to fall for demagogues when times are hard. That's the only comparison that can be drawn between then and now. Then, meaning the general elections of '32. The last democratic elections.

And to come back to one of the original arguments of the hatred against jews being the determining factor. That certainly wasn't the case. People took antisemitism in their stride, but what ultimately made the NSDAP the strongest party in '32 was Hitler's rhetoric against the political establishment (also a legitimate comparison) and the promise to present seemingly easy solutions to widespread unemployment.

It's also worth noting that Hitler wasn't even a German citizen until the year of '32 when the nazi party ruling the independent state of Braunschweig granted him German citizenship. Between 1925 and 1932 Hitler was stateless, after Austria revoked his citizenship.

The reason for him striving for German citizenship were the presidential elections of 1932. The only democratic elections Hitler, as a person, ever ran for. Hindenburg won with 49,5 percent, followed by Hitler with 30,1 percent and the communist leader Ernst Thälmann with 13,2 percent of the general vote.

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18-05-2017, 04:09 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
Thread title should be "Hitler was elected Republicanally".
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28-05-2017, 11:41 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
That Germans did not elect the chancellor is irrelevant. Hitler gained power using what were then constitutional means.

Although I hear he did make little hats that said "Make Deutschland Great Again."

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29-05-2017, 02:29 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(28-05-2017 11:41 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  That Germans did not elect the chancellor is irrelevant. Hitler gained power using what were then constitutional means.

Although I hear he did make little hats that said "Make Deutschland Great Again."

I think you are pointing towards the important distinction we have to make:

Hitler never was elected by a majority of voters (not in a free election!)
He was appointed as chancellor and made a law (according to constitution and his role in the constitution) that transfered the power of Präsident to him and added to his power as Kanzler.

He gained his powers constitutionally, but the fact that and how this could happen showed the severe flaws of this constitution, caused by the desire of the writers to have a strong leaders position.

This last part, i think is most relevant in relation to the situation with Trump. One of the big hopes of his supporters is to have a powerful leader.
Weimar showed what is entirely possible (given some more circumstances) following this premise.

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31-05-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
Quote:Hitler never was elected by a majority of voters (not in a free election!)

Neither was Henry VIII. In fact, throughout human history most leaders were not elected at all.

Let's not overvalue the concept of elections, either.

The last one we had here has us ending up with a piece of shit like Trump.... well, except for the "majority" part.

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