"Hitler was elected democratically"
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08-06-2017, 08:42 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
Oh This myth, almost as bad as the myth that Hitler was a christian or Atheist, he was most likely a Catholic-deist

In fact there is some debate he might have secretly ADMIRED the Catholic Church. But threw it away when during his reign.
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09-06-2017, 02:04 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(08-06-2017 08:42 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  Oh This myth, almost as bad as the myth that Hitler was a christian or Atheist, he was most likely a Catholic-deist

In fact there is some debate he might have secretly ADMIRED the Catholic Church. But threw it away when during his reign.

Hitler was christian by birth or rather baptism as he was never excommunicated. How deep and sincere was his faith is another matter, just as using it for political gain. All in all it seems that he believed in some god figure but there is little that points to deism and even less that points to atheism; he seemed convinced that it was providence which saved him from Stauffenberg assassination attempt*. His fight against Jews too was tied with religion**. Maybe both of these weren't sincere but no biography I read made case for Hitler being something else than believer.

Also about admiring - when you want build 1000 years Reich then you will look with admiration on people who succeeded in building so long lasting organization.

*The bomb which was planted by Colonel von Stauffenberg exploded two meters to my right. It seriously injured a number of my colleagues who are very dear to me; one has died. I myself am completely unhurt apart from a few minor skin abrasions, bruises and burns. I interpret this as confirmation that Providence wishes me to continue my life's mission as I have in the past.
Few people can begin to imagine the fate which would have overtaken Germany had the assassination attempt succeeded. I myself thank Providence and my Creator not for preserving me—my life consists only of worry and work for my People—I thank him only for allowing me to continue to bear this burden of worry, and to carry on my work to the best of my ability.

Once again I take this opportunity, my old comrades in arms, to greet you, joyful that I have once again been spared a fate which, while it held no terror for me personally, would have had terrible consequences for the German People. I interpret this as a sign from Providence that I must continue my work, and therefore I shall continue it.


**Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-06-2017, 03:13 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(08-06-2017 08:42 PM)OmniConsUme Wrote:  In fact there is some debate he might have secretly ADMIRED the Catholic Church. But threw it away when during his reign.

He admired them right to his last. Not for religious reasons but for their ability to keep people in line, to crack down on their enemies, to even overthrow rulers.

That's all well documented in the table conversations at the headquarters, Harry Picker penned down and published after the war.

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09-06-2017, 06:51 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
It would be more accurate ( and equally as wrong) to compare Adolph Hitler to Bill Clinton rather than Donald Trumph.

After all Hitler did have charisma.

The only thing Trumph has in common with Adolph is a ridiculous hair style...

Maybe Trumph should grow a moustache as well.....


It'd probably help his poll numbers.

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The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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09-06-2017, 07:33 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 06:51 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  The only thing Trumph has in common with Adolph is a ridiculous hair style...

Maybe Trumph should grow a moustache as well.....

Hitler had the brownshirts. Trump has the alt-right online bullies.

Hitler lied to get power. Ditto Trump.

Hitler was masterful in propaganda, gaining support from newspapers and radio stations. Trump has Brietbart, Fox and other right-wing outlets.

Hitler courted the Catholic Church. Trump courts the evangelical vote.

Hitler demonized Jews. Trump demonizes Muslims.

More here: Donald Trump using Adolf Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' playbook, says world expert on Nazi leader

There's the thing known as "Godwin's Law" that references Adolph. Methinks that once the Trump administration collapses, there'll be a new one that will reference the fascist, loofah-faced shitgibbon.
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09-06-2017, 07:51 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
Focusing on the results of an election is the wrong question.

The question, as Heath has pointed out, is what are the similarities in the nation of Germany itself, and the methods employed by the NSDAP propagandists/allies, to attain power-- even when most Germans would not have supported them.

Similarly, most Americans do not support Donald Trump and his minions. Even with a significant part of the "progressive" liberal base refusing to vote for Hillary Clinton (and with her being almost universally despised in the southern states), she managed to get 3 million more votes than Trump.

I am far more concerned with dissecting the undercurrent of American culture which has enabled the rise of the alt-right and placed them in positions of power. Fascism in its German form was a wedding of the wealthy elites with a faux-populist message that promised prosperity and greatness to those who supported them, demonizing and scapegoating minority groups, and creating external threats designed to switch off the rationality of the average German... even when the academics of Germany were screaming at the top of their lungs that this was a false promise and would backfire-- this is how the phrase "Lügenpresse" (Lying Press) came to be a necessary propaganda message for Hitler to the German people, and why one of the first things they did was attack academia. This is something we are seeing paralleled today, through guys like Bannon and Fox News.

I also agree that the conservative, hyper-Capitalist Powers That Be™ saw Trump as an easy-to-manipulate buffoon in a similar vein to the way the German PTB™ saw Hitler, and that those American PTB™ are currently pushing through their radical agenda with him at the helm. Both of Germany's World Wars were driven, in large part, by hyper-Capitalists trying to gain even more power-- and both manipulating and using the anger of the "base", the under-/un-employed working class of Germany to achieve their ends.

That it backfired spectacularly, and resulted in the deaths of millions of people in the ensuing attempts by German industrialists to gain everything they wanted, should be a warning to us all, and the focus of this inquiry by worried Americans... not whether or not democracy itself failed.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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09-06-2017, 08:01 AM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2017 08:05 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 07:33 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Hitler had the brownshirts. Trump has the alt-right online bullies.

Which is a world of difference. Online bullies aren't the same thing as quasi military thugs willing to scare, beat and even kill your opponents.

Quote:Hitler lied to get power. Ditto Trump.

That could be said about any politician. You could say that both Hitler and Trump had mother and father.

Quote:Hitler was masterful in propaganda, gaining support from newspapers and radio stations. Trump has Brietbart, Fox and other right-wing outlets.

Hitler had people good in propaganda work like Goebbels and Strasser doing his bidding. He was good speaker though.

Quote:Hitler courted the Catholic Church. Trump courts the evangelical vote.

Again politicians courting church are common occurrence.

Quote:Hitler demonized Jews. Trump demonizes Muslims.

Politician demonizing Others is nothing surprising nor uncommon.

These similarities are seriously lacking it's just basic political stuff - lying, looking for scapegoat and brown nosing the church. Judging by this most of polish political scene is similar to Hitler.

Quote:More here: Donald Trump using Adolf Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' playbook, says world expert on Nazi leader

So some journalist that isn't even historian suddenly become world expert on Hitler? Were it said about Kershaw or Fest it would be believable.

About the article - Weimar Germany hardly was democracy destroying itself democratically*. Democratically Hitler won shit, he gained power through elites thinking that they can control him. There was also widespread contempt for democracy.

There's also issue of Hitler anti-Semitism** - if according to what Bullock allegedly said hate of Jews was propaganda trick then Shoah became much harder to explain given how removed from pragmatic politics it was.


*As part of this normalisation — a phenomenon Mr Rosenbaum said also happened with Mr Trump — Hitler and the Nazi party were allowed back onto electoral lists — in an act of “democracy destroying itself democratically”.
**Citing a conversation with Hitler biographer Alan Bullock, Mr Rosenbaum suggested the Nazi might not even have believed in his own anti-Semitism, and could have "just used the Jew-hatred to advance his cause with the nitwit thug segment of the German people".

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-06-2017, 08:03 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(17-05-2017 09:12 AM)ImFred Wrote:  It's sort of like if Ford ended up murdering millions of people.

Wrong.
Hitler murdered *at most*, less than 10 people. They say 3 - 7, if any.
Elected or not, Germany was a Christian nation which allowed the National Socialists to come to power, and do what they did. The old crap argument that Hitler being an atheist allowed him to "murder millions of people" is just dead wrong. Without the cooperation of professed Christians, the sequence of events which ended as they did, could not have happened.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-06-2017, 08:20 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 08:03 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-05-2017 09:12 AM)ImFred Wrote:  It's sort of like if Ford ended up murdering millions of people.

Wrong.
Hitler murdered *at most*, less than 10 people. They say 3 - 7, if any.
Elected or not, Germany was a Christian nation which allowed the National Socialists to come to power, and do what they did. The old crap argument that Hitler being an atheist allowed him to "murder millions of people" is just dead wrong. Without the cooperation of professed Christians, the sequence of events which ended as they did, could not have happened.

The demographics of the SS officer corps was 97% a match for the general German population. So the men who ran the lagers were Catholic or Protestant.
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09-06-2017, 08:32 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 07:51 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The question, as Heath has pointed out, is what are the similarities in the nation of Germany itself, and the methods employed by the NSDAP propagandists/allies, to attain power-- even when most Germans would not have supported them.

That's already focussing on the wrong issue. Demagogism needs fertile soil. And that's the similarity we can observe between then and now. Not only in America. We had a major economical crisis in 2008 from which the world hasn't entirely recovered. At least the working population hasn't. They see a bleak future for themselves and their offspring.

That's, as I stressed before, the main reason why the NSDAP only had 2,6 percent of the general vote in 1928 and rose to 32 percent in 1932. In between lay the start of the Great Depression in 1929. It's only coincidence that the USA didn't take a similar path back then. Because they had a democratic candidate who filled the role of demagogue pretty nicely. Roosevelt also promised things he couldn't hope to deliver. And in fact, he didn't deliver until the war broke out and the war economy took care of the unemployment issue. But at the same time, radical movements, such as the fascists, grew pretty strong in the US also. Certainly more vocal than anything the US has seen since then until the rise of the alt right, again, in the wake of a depression.

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