"Hitler was elected democratically"
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09-06-2017, 08:37 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
@RS

If by populism you mean support for the concerns of ordinary people then you hardly can call Hitler tactics faux-populism given 1934 tax reform which helped those who had the least* or rising the taxes in 1939 which rise didn't mattered to those who earned less than 2400 DM yearly (that is 70% of taxpayers)**. Honestly entire Aly book made case that Hitler policy could be called many names but not faux-populist.

Corporations also weren't in financial heaven given that their part in cash from taxes risen from 7% in 1935 to 14% in 1938***.

There was also KDF, lending money to young marriages and child support. Nazi state was genuine in it's care of it's own citizens. That is citizens that it saw as of good racial stock. Also cost of this care was starvation and death for others.

*Gotz Aly, Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State, p. 57 of polish 2014 edition.
**p. 75
***p. 56

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09-06-2017, 10:06 AM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 08:37 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @RS

If by populism you mean support for the concerns of ordinary people then you hardly can call Hitler tactics faux-populism given 1934 tax reform which helped those who had the least* or rising the taxes in 1939 which rise didn't mattered to those who earned less than 2400 DM yearly (that is 70% of taxpayers)**.

The point is that he won by a populist message, meaning that he pandered to the cares of the blue-collar worker, which is how Trump did it. He just happened to be lying his ass off because, unlike Hitler, he is a "silver spoon" baby. This is how Hillary lost the "Democrat's firewall" states like Michigan, Minnesota, Iowa, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. Look how red they turned!

[Image: president-leader.png]

Compare to Obama's results, the previous election:

[Image: 2012electoralmapresultsfinal110812.jpg]


(09-06-2017 08:37 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Corporations also weren't in financial heaven given that their part in cash from taxes risen from 7% in 1935 to 14% in 1938***.

I'm not sure what that tax rate, in those particular years (financing the buildup to war), has to do with the wealthy elites seeking to control global/regional resources they knew Germany needed to become a dominant industrial power again.

(09-06-2017 08:37 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  There was also KDF, lending money to young marriages and child support. Nazi state was genuine in it's care of it's own citizens. That is citizens that it saw as of good racial stock. Also cost of this care was starvation and death for others.

I don't argue that the GOP of today has an entirely different attitude about what they're actually willing to do for American workers, compared to what Germany's government actually did for their hurting working class. However, they were facing a popular socialist movement, while the United States has no such pressure on our industrialists, due to the success of many decades of anti-communist propaganda during the Cold War. As a result, they no longer have to give anything away to maintain their support, and have even managed to convince the people that this is what they want, thanks to successful scapegoating propaganda and other relatives of "the Welfare Queen" myth. (I recommend you read Thomas Frank's What's the Matter With Kansas?, if you're curious to know more about this American phenomenon.)

America's legacy of structural racism is certainly different from Germany's active, direct racism, but I would argue that the effects (prior to the outbreak of war, when Germany was able to move more directly to suppress the Enemies of the State, which it saw as race-related) upon our minorities are similar. If you disagree that the pre-war concentration/work camps were different from our system of mass incarceration, and the subsequent electronic labeling of U.S. convicts which subjects them to employment difficulties and numerous forms of police discrimination, which falls primarily upon historically poor minority neighborhoods (due to decades of economic neglect that stemmed from actual, overt racism in our nation's past), I would be curious to hear that argument.

Again, my point is not to draw one-to-one parallels between what Germany did and what America is doing, but to point that the elements and methods being exploited have more than a few eerie similarities, of which we should take note.

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09-06-2017, 10:29 AM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2017 10:42 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 10:06 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The point is that he won by a populist message, meaning that he pandered to the cares of the blue-collar worker, which is how Trump did it.

So populist not faux-populist. As strange as this sound Hitler did care. Or more to the point remembered how food shortages impacted morale of the populace in WWI.

Quote:I'm not sure what that tax rate, in those particular years (financing the buildup to war), has to do with the wealthy elites seeking to control global/regional resources they knew Germany needed to become a dominant industrial power again.

Higher taxes for corporations and lower for low paid workers meant that Hitler really had well being of working populace in mind. It was not only rhetoric used during elections.

Quote:I don't argue that the GOP of today has an entirely different attitude about what they're actually willing to do for American workers, compared to what Germany's government actually did for their hurting working class. However, they were facing a popular socialist movement, while the United States has no such pressure on our industrialists, due to the success of many decades of anti-communist propaganda during the Cold War. As a result, they no longer have to give anything away to maintain their support, and have even managed to convince the people that this is what they want, thanks to successful scapegoating propaganda and other relatives of "the Welfare Queen" myth. (I recommend you read Thomas Frank's What's the Matter With Kansas?, if you're curious to know more about this American phenomenon.)

America's legacy of structural racism is certainly different from Germany's active, direct racism, but I would argue that the effects (prior to the outbreak of war, when Germany was able to move more directly to suppress the Enemies of the State, which it saw as race-related) upon our minorities are similar. If you disagree that the pre-war concentration/work camps were different from our system of mass incarceration, and the subsequent electronic labeling of U.S. convicts which subjects them to employment difficulties and numerous forms of police discrimination, which falls primarily upon historically poor minority neighborhoods (due to decades of economic neglect that stemmed from actual, overt racism in our nation's past), I would be curious to hear that argument.

At no point my post was tied to current American politics so I don't see from where are you coming with answer. I just disagree with your claim about Hitler policy being faux-populist as defined in my earlier post.

About concentration camps - I didn't even mentioned them. German ones however seemed to be designed to perform other functions namely keeping the populace in check, imprisoning political opponents and in later years killing whoever state deem undesirable. Though I've never read book specifically about concentration camps so I may be wrong in my assessment gleamed from works on different subjects. I might be up to discuss similarities and differences after I finish A History of the Nazi Concentration Camps by Nikolaus Wachsmann.

Edit: I'm familiar with Welfare Queen myth or at least it polish version - unemployed are lazy and their unemployment is their and only their fault.

Quote:Again, my point is not to draw one-to-one parallels between what Germany did and what America is doing, but to point that the elements and methods being exploited have more than a few eerie similarities, of which we should take note.

My post wasn't even about America, only Nazi state.

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09-06-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 10:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  So populist not faux-populist. As strange as this sound Hitler did care. Or more to the point remembered how food shortages impacted morale of the populace in WWI.

Agreed. But I think it's important to note that Hitler, like Trump, was put into place by people who thought he was a buffoon who was easy to control, and who likely annoyed the powerful with such actions-- but both men were savvy enough to know that such pandering is important. The difference is that Hitler was a poor guy who remembered it, and Trump has never known the plight of the working class-- he just pretends to represent them in order to advance his own agenda, which in Trump's case much more closely aligns with the powerful capitalist elites, since he is one.

Whether it's fake or not is irrelevant to the parallel, I think... but the fact that the same tactic is being used.

(09-06-2017 10:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
Quote:I'm not sure what that tax rate, in those particular years (financing the buildup to war), has to do with the wealthy elites seeking to control global/regional resources they knew Germany needed to become a dominant industrial power again.

Higher taxes for corporations and lower for low paid workers meant that Hitler really had well being of working populace in mind. It was not only rhetoric used during elections.

Okay. Point taken. But this still is a sidebar from my major point.

(09-06-2017 10:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  At no point my post was tied to current American politics so I don't see from where are you coming with answer. I just disagree with your claim about Hitler policy being faux-populist as defined in my earlier post.

I am coming from the perspective that the claim "Hitler was democratically elected", while false, is an attempt to draw parallels between the fascist government of Nazi Germany and the methodologies being employed by the current US administration, including their breed of populist rhetoric and demagoguery.

(09-06-2017 10:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  About concentration camps - I didn't even mentioned them. German ones however seemed to be designed to perform other functions namely keeping the populace in check, imprisoning political opponents and in later years killing whoever state deem undesirable.

A significant, significant portion of the US prison population exists because of the Drug War, which was escalated by the Nixon Administration (and further escalated by later administrations/congresses) as a way of suppressing the Counterculture movement-- Black Panthers and hippies, mainly-- to keep the populace in place even as the hyper-capitalists moved to create a system that fucked over the poor in order to enact the greatest transfer of capital (upward, in this case) since the Communist Revolution. The original drug laws were created for this purpose, explicitly, and Nixon was clear and on-tape about the usefulness of the new war to keep his enemies (essentially, anyone who wasn't Mr. American Pie) in their place. Most of the non-drug crimes are linked to the Drug War and/or the systematic denial to minority groups/neighborhoods of funding for the infrastructure programs that helped move the white US citizens into the middle class.

(09-06-2017 10:29 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  My post wasn't even about America, only Nazi state.

I know. But as I said, the point of the thread is that people are recognizing the similarities between the propaganda and outlook of the white supremacists in Nazi Germany and those here, and the use of that propaganda (and in Hitler's case, actions) to convince the working class that they should support what were really the goals of the wealthy elites. This particular parallel is incorrect, since Hitler was not democratically elected in the sense that Trump was, but there are many others that need to be examined.

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09-06-2017, 12:46 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 12:23 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Agreed. But I think it's important to note that Hitler, like Trump, was put into place by people who thought he was a buffoon who was easy to control, and who likely annoyed the powerful with such actions-- but both men were savvy enough to know that such pandering is important. The difference is that Hitler was a poor guy who remembered it, and Trump has never known the plight of the working class-- he just pretends to represent them in order to advance his own agenda, which in Trump's case much more closely aligns with the powerful capitalist elites, since he is one.

Whether it's fake or not is irrelevant to the parallel, I think... but the fact that the same tactic is being used.

I didn't and don't scrutinize Trump actions but I would say that similarities are mostly superficial - politician saying to electorate that he understands their struggle isn't something uncommon I think. Politician playing kissy faces with wealthy is nothing special. Politician wanting to make x great is bog standard. Trump's just populist (or true democrat as Edward Luttwak claims)* so some similarities at first glance are understandable.

Quote:I am coming from the perspective that the claim "Hitler was democratically elected", while false, is an attempt to draw parallels between the fascist government of Nazi Germany and the methodologies being employed by the current US administration, including their breed of populist rhetoric and demagoguery.

I don't see much of Nazi Germany in Trump USA. Sure his for example use of enemy of people phrase could be worrying given historical connotations (if tied more to USSR) but scapegoating and hatred for minorities isn't Nazi domain.

Quote:A significant, significant portion of the US prison population exists because of the Drug War, which was escalated by the Nixon Administration (and further escalated by later administrations/congresses) as a way of suppressing the Counterculture movement-- Black Panthers and hippies, mainly-- to keep the populace in place even as the hyper-capitalists moved to create a system that fucked over the poor in order to enact the greatest transfer of capital (upward, in this case) since the Communist Revolution. The original drug laws were created for this purpose, explicitly, and Nixon was clear and on-tape about the usefulness of the new war to keep his enemies (essentially, anyone who wasn't Mr. American Pie) in their place. Most of the non-drug crimes are linked to the Drug War and/or the systematic denial to minority groups/neighborhoods of funding for the infrastructure programs that helped move the white US citizens into the middle class.

If that's interpretation correct then I admit that USA prison system bear some similarities to Nazi apparatus of repression at least to my untrained eye. As in removing undesirables not real criminals (law may state differently but I can't in good conscience call drug user criminal).

Quote:I know. But as I said, the point of the thread is that people are recognizing the similarities between the propaganda and outlook of the white supremacists in Nazi Germany and those here, and the use of that propaganda (and in Hitler's case, actions) to convince the working class that they should support what were really the goals of the wealthy elites. This particular parallel is incorrect, since Hitler was not democratically elected in the sense that Trump was, but there are many others that need to be examined.

But in Hitler case working class wasn't cheated out of it's dole - it gained real if short term and built on suffering of others benefits.

Also - while I'm vaguely aware of how American system works - I wouldn't call Trump democratically elected given his loss in popular vote.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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09-06-2017, 12:47 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 12:23 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I am coming from the perspective that the claim "Hitler was democratically elected", while false, is an attempt to draw parallels between the fascist government of Nazi Germany and the methodologies being employed by the current US administration, including their breed of populist rhetoric and demagoguery.

And my point is that using false information to advance a point is not wise argumentation. I don't argue with the point that there are indeed similarities between Weimar Germany and modern America. But when information that is clearly false is used to support the point, it weakens the point.

Plus, I'm a history dork, and in such cases as this where there are clear-cut facts, it's important to get those facts right.

Future generations will be able to say, factually, that Trump was elected. And yes, that is an indictment of the American voter.
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09-06-2017, 01:56 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 12:23 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I know. But as I said, the point of the thread is that people are recognizing the similarities between the propaganda and outlook of the white supremacists in Nazi Germany and those here, and the use of that propaganda (and in Hitler's case, actions) to convince the working class that they should support what were really the goals of the wealthy elites. This particular parallel is incorrect, since Hitler was not democratically elected in the sense that Trump was, but there are many others that need to be examined.

Careful there. You're right in saying, Hitler wasn't democratically elected in the sense that he got the majority of the votes. Yet, in forming a coalition with conservative and nationalist exponents, his administration was formed in accordance of the constitution. It wasn't a hostile takeover, but a democratic process as was and is still usual in most countries. Coalitions are needed to form a government.

But you're entirely right in saying that Hitler can't be compared to Trump nor to any other populous figure rising to power in any other part of the world. There's the same fertile soil that favors demagogues, but one can never draw comparisons to historical figures. The ones coming to power deserve to be judged on their own faults. Otherwise it clouds judgment and fails to adress what has to be done to stop them.

Trump is dangerous. For his country as well as the world. So far he isn't able to abolish checks and balances. Others won't stand for it, which is also a major difference to the Weimar republic. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't like to. All of these figures would like nothing better than not being questioned in their decisions.

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09-06-2017, 03:35 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
An amusing thought occurred to me, about this thread, while I was out running errands.

Someone should bookmark this thread and then link it, next time some asshole comes in here claiming we're only calling out their bullshit because we're an echo chamber who just automatically agree with one another because we're all atheists.

"Oh yeah, think we don't call each other the moment we smell something that might be an error, or even a fellow atheist saying bullshit?!" *link* Laugh out load

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09-06-2017, 06:54 PM
RE: "Hitler was elected democratically"
(09-06-2017 12:47 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Future generations will be able to say, factually, that Trump was elected. And yes, that is an indictment of the American voter.

No, it's an indictment of the American voting system.

When someone like Trump can lose the popular vote by millions and still become president, then clearly there's something wrong with the system.

There are about 225 million people legally eligible to vote in the US. [Image: FT_16.01.26_eligibleVoterChange.png]

Trump's vote count came to just under 63 million.

That means nearly three out of four voting-age people either didn't vote for Trump or purposefully voted against him.

It's not the American voter that's stupid, it's the American electoral college system.

Trump is a false president. He has no mandate.
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