Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
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17-12-2013, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2013 08:34 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
I get this all the time from Theists I debate, as "proof" that Atheism is bad.


I often hear the simplistic, reductionist claim that there is a kind of equation between atheism and Nazism....for example, statements like "atheism leads to evil or such things as Nazism (epitome of evil)" There have been any number of similar claims made in various quarters: Nazism was an inevitable product of Darwin, or of Luther, or of the Versailles treaty, or of Wagner's opera, or of Nietzsche, or of Hegel. All of these break down under the obvious objection that there were plenty of atheists, darwinists, Lutherans, objectors to the Versailles treaty, Wagnerians, Nietzsche and Hegelians who did not become Nazis. These are all vacuous arguments from a historiographical perspective.

Was Adolf Hitler an atheist? Hitler cannot be called a church going christian, but neither can he be used as an example of an atheist. Hardly the product of an anti-christian childhood and upbringing, he attended mass with his devout mother and was a choirboy, which he quite enjoyed. Indeed, the majesty and pageantry of the church heavily influenced the staging in Nazi rallies and rituals.

born and raised a roman catholic, Hitler remained a nominal catholic for the rest of his life. he never officially renounced the church or his membership in it, but he was hostile to the church's impulses of caring for the weak, infirm, and mentally handicapped, who he wished to destroy. Hitler never doubted the divinity of Jesus, just his jewishness, convinced that he was actually an Aryan. The portraits of a fair haired, blue eyed Jesus that grace so many American homes would have doubtless met with his approval.

Consider the following examples rebutting the claim that he was an atheist:

1) When party secretary martin bormann closed a convent, Hitler reversed the order.
2) Hitler allowed the German army to have catholic and protestant chaplains in field. In fact the troops wore a belt buckle embossed with the inscription "god is with us".
3) In endless monologues to those around him, Hitler never once professed to be an atheist or unbeliever in the Abraham god of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. In particular, he had the greatest admiration for Islam, particularly its military tradition.
4) Survivor of over a dozen assassination plots and attempts, Hitler credited "divine providence" and "almighty god" for saving him to complete his great mission. On the eve of the soviet invasion, Hitler ended his address to his troops with "Almighty god bless our arms".
5) The first foreign policy coup of nazi germany was the "Concordat with the Vatican", allowing the church independence and catholic schools ot remain open in exchange for staying out of politics. The church also "welcomed the way" when operation barbarossa..the campaign against the godless soviet union was launched. Hitler, SS chief Heinrich Himmler, and architect of the holocaust Reinhard Heydrich, nominal catholics all, were never excommunicated by the holy sec. To this very day they remain catholics in good standing.
6) When overzealous nazi party officials removed crucifixes from classroom walls in bavaria, hitler personally reversed the order and had them rehung.

Now, some of the myths surrounding hitler's atheism can be attributed to an inaccurate and poorly translated version of Table Talk. Table Talk is a book of transcribed conversations that hitler had with those close to him. Some versions of this book that were translated from german to other languages contained fabricated statements not found in the original german manuscript.

With or without religion good people do good things, evil people will do evil things, for good people to do evil things takes religion.

Secular morality is the aspect of philosophy that deals with morality outside of religious traditions. Modern examples include humanism, freethinking, and most versions of consequentialism. Additional philosophies with ancient roots include those such as skepticism and virtue ethics. Greg M. Epstein also states that, "much of ancient Far Eastern thought is deeply concerned with human goodness without placing much if any stock in the importance of gods or spirits. Other philosophers have proposed various ideas about how to determine right and wrong actions. An example is Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative: "The idea that actions can only be considered moral if they could be imitated by anyone else and produce good results.

A variety of positions are apparent regarding the relationship between religion and morality. Some believe that religion is necessary as a guide to a moral life. This idea has been with us for nearly 2,000 years. There are various thoughts regarding how this idea has arisen. For example, Greg Epstein suggests that this idea is connected to a concerted effort by theists to question nonreligious ideas: "conservative authorities have, since ancient days, had a clever counter strategy against religious skepticism—convincing people that atheism is evil, and then accusing their enemies of being atheists.

Others eschew the idea that religion is required to provide a guide to right and wrong behavior, such as the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Ethics which states that religion and morality "are to be defined differently and have no definitional connections with each other". Some believe that religions provide poor guides to moral behavior. Various commentators, such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are among those who have asserted this view.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death."
— Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 1930

Popular atheist author and biologist Richard Dawkins, writing in The God Delusion, has stated that religious people have committed a wide variety of acts and held certain beliefs through history that are considered today to be morally repugnant. He has stated that Adolf Hitler and the Nazis held broadly Christian religious beliefs that inspired the Holocaust on account of antisemitic Christian doctrine, that Christians have traditionally imposed unfair restrictions on the legal and civil rights of women, and that Christians have condoned slavery of some form or description throughout most of Christianity's history. Dawkins insists that, since Jewish and Christian interpretations of the Bible have changed over the span of history so that what was formerly seen as permissible is now seen as impermissible, it is intellectually dishonest for them to believe theism provides an absolute moral foundation apart from secular intuition. In addition, he argued that since Christians and other religious groups do not acknowledge the binding authority of all parts of their holy texts (e.g., The books of Exodus and Leviticus state that those who work on the Sabbath and those caught performing acts of homosexuality, respectively, were to be put to death.), they are already capable of distinguishing "right" from "wrong."

The well-known passage from Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov, "If God is dead, all is permitted," suggests that non-believers would not hold moral lives without the possibility of punishment by a God. Greg M. Epstein notes a similar theme in reverse. Famous apologies by Christians who have "sinned" (such as Bill Clinton and Jimmy Swaggart) "must embolden some who take enormous risks for the thrill of a little immoral behavior: their Lord will forgive them, if they only ask nicely enough when—or if—they are eventually caught. If you're going to do something naughty, you're going to do it, and all the theology in the world isn't going to stop you." Some survey and sociological literature suggests that theists do no better than their secular counterparts in the percentage adhering to widely held moral standards (e.g., lying, theft and sexual infidelity).


Now in argument for a secular society being the best consider this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28b...=all&_r=1&

Then when one considers a population made up of Theists, who believe devoutly, like in Saudia Arabian countries, they make up the very bottom of the list of countries in regards to living conditions, civil rights and forward thinking....I am sure this doesn't surprise anyone. For when religion has complete control, bad things always happen.

Thoughts? Smartass

EDIT: A reply to this post made me pause....I am in no way promoting hitler, his lunatic world dominance view, or anything to do with his sick world...I am merely providing info for those who get the "atheists societies would be another hitler regime, or atheists are immoral type posits. It is a illogical conclusion to equate atheists in anyway with hitler, thankfully. If in anyway I offended someone by this post, it was NOT my intent. Please dont take this post the wrong way. Blink
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17-12-2013, 08:19 AM
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
(17-12-2013 08:13 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Thoughts? Smartass

Hitler is an equal opportunity thread killer. Whichever side brings him up, loses. OK? Dodgy

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17-12-2013, 08:28 AM
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
(17-12-2013 08:13 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I get this all the time from Theists I debate, as "proof" that Atheism is bad.


I often hear the simplistic, reductionist claim that there is a kind of equation between atheism and Nazism....for example, statements like "atheism leads to evil or such things as Nazism (epitome of evil)" There have been any number of similar claims made in various quarters: Nazism was an inevitable product of Darwin, or of Luther, or of the Versailles treaty, or of Wagner's opera, or of Nietzsche, or of Hegel. All of these break down under the obvious objection that there were plenty of atheists, darwinists, Lutherans, objectors to the Versailles treaty, Wagnerians, Nietzsche and Hegelians who did not become Nazis. These are all vacuous arguments from a historiographical perspective.

Was Adolf Hitler an atheist? Hitler cannot be called a church going christian, but neither can he be used as an example of an atheist. Hardly the product of an anti-christian childhood and upbringing, he attended mass with his devout mother and was a choirboy, which he quite enjoyed. Indeed, the majesty and pageantry of the church heavily influenced the staging in Nazi rallies and rituals.

born and raised a roman catholic, Hitler remained a nominal catholic for the rest of his life. he never officially renounced the church or his membership in it, but he was hostile to the church's impulses of caring for the weak, infirm, and mentally handicapped, who he wished to destroy. Hitler never doubted the divinity of Jesus, just his jewishness, convinced that he was actually an Aryan. The portraits of a fair haired, blue eyed Jesus that grace so many American homes would have doubtless met with his approval.

Consider the following examples rebutting the claim that he was an atheist:

1) When party secretary martin bormann closed a convent, Hitler reversed the order.
2) Hitler allowed the German army to have catholic and protestant chaplains in field. In fact the troops wore a belt buckle embossed with the inscription "god is with us".
3) In endless monologues to those around him, Hitler never once professed to be an atheist or unbeliever in the Abraham god of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. In particular, he had the greatest admiration for Islam, particularly its military tradition.
4) Survivor of over a dozen assassination plots and attempts, Hitler credited "divine providence" and "almighty god" for saving him to complete his great mission. On the eve of the soviet invasion, Hitler ended his address to his troops with "Almighty god bless our arms".
5) The first foreign policy coup of nazi germany was the "Concordat with the Vatican", allowing the church independence and catholic schools ot remain open in exchange for staying out of politics. The church also "welcomed the way" when operation barbarossa..the campaign against the godless soviet union was launched. Hitler, SS chief Heinrich Himmler, and architect of the holocaust Reinhard Heydrich, nominal catholics all, were never excommunicated by the holy sec. To this very day they remain catholics in good standing.
6) When overzealous nazi party officials removed crucifixes from classroom walls in bavaria, hitler personally reversed the order and had them rehung.

Now, some of the myths surrounding hitler's atheism can be attributed to an inaccurate and poorly translated version of Table Talk. Table Talk is a book of transcribed conversations that hitler had with those close to him. Some versions of this book that were translated from german to other languages contained fabricated statements not found in the original german manuscript.

With or without religion good people do good things, evil people will do evil things, for good people to do evil things takes religion.

Secular morality is the aspect of philosophy that deals with morality outside of religious traditions. Modern examples include humanism, freethinking, and most versions of consequentialism. Additional philosophies with ancient roots include those such as skepticism and virtue ethics. Greg M. Epstein also states that, "much of ancient Far Eastern thought is deeply concerned with human goodness without placing much if any stock in the importance of gods or spirits. Other philosophers have proposed various ideas about how to determine right and wrong actions. An example is Immanuel Kant's categorical imperative: "The idea that actions can only be considered moral if they could be imitated by anyone else and produce good results.

A variety of positions are apparent regarding the relationship between religion and morality. Some believe that religion is necessary as a guide to a moral life. This idea has been with us for nearly 2,000 years. There are various thoughts regarding how this idea has arisen. For example, Greg Epstein suggests that this idea is connected to a concerted effort by theists to question nonreligious ideas: "conservative authorities have, since ancient days, had a clever counter strategy against religious skepticism—convincing people that atheism is evil, and then accusing their enemies of being atheists.

Others eschew the idea that religion is required to provide a guide to right and wrong behavior, such as the Westminster Dictionary of Christian Ethics which states that religion and morality "are to be defined differently and have no definitional connections with each other". Some believe that religions provide poor guides to moral behavior. Various commentators, such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are among those who have asserted this view.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death."
— Albert Einstein, "Religion and Science," New York Times Magazine, 1930

Popular atheist author and biologist Richard Dawkins, writing in The God Delusion, has stated that religious people have committed a wide variety of acts and held certain beliefs through history that are considered today to be morally repugnant. He has stated that Adolf Hitler and the Nazis held broadly Christian religious beliefs that inspired the Holocaust on account of antisemitic Christian doctrine, that Christians have traditionally imposed unfair restrictions on the legal and civil rights of women, and that Christians have condoned slavery of some form or description throughout most of Christianity's history. Dawkins insists that, since Jewish and Christian interpretations of the Bible have changed over the span of history so that what was formerly seen as permissible is now seen as impermissible, it is intellectually dishonest for them to believe theism provides an absolute moral foundation apart from secular intuition. In addition, he argued that since Christians and other religious groups do not acknowledge the binding authority of all parts of their holy texts (e.g., The books of Exodus and Leviticus state that those who work on the Sabbath and those caught performing acts of homosexuality, respectively, were to be put to death.), they are already capable of distinguishing "right" from "wrong."

The well-known passage from Dostoyevsky's The Brothers Karamazov, "If God is dead, all is permitted," suggests that non-believers would not hold moral lives without the possibility of punishment by a God. Greg M. Epstein notes a similar theme in reverse. Famous apologies by Christians who have "sinned" (such as Bill Clinton and Jimmy Swaggart) "must embolden some who take enormous risks for the thrill of a little immoral behavior: their Lord will forgive them, if they only ask nicely enough when—or if—they are eventually caught. If you're going to do something naughty, you're going to do it, and all the theology in the world isn't going to stop you." Some survey and sociological literature suggests that theists do no better than their secular counterparts in the percentage adhering to widely held moral standards (e.g., lying, theft and sexual infidelity).


Now in argument for a secular society being the best consider this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/28/us/28b...=all&_r=1&

Then when one considers a population made up of Theists, who believe devoutly, like in Saudia Arabian countries, they make up the very bottom of the list of countries in regards to living conditions, civil rights and forward thinking....I am sure this doesn't surprise anyone. For when religion has complete control, bad things always happen.

Thoughts? Smartass

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17-12-2013, 08:29 AM
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
Extra argument: FYI
In short: Hitler sent a letter to his pope asking for permission to execute his plans.
The pope replied and gave his permission.

http://www.cprf.co.uk/articles/PopePiusX...Hitler.htm

Though there is doubt of whether or not Hitler was familiar with the extent of the purges.
Movies have been made about how Reinhard Heyndrich and Adolf Eichmann set the whole thing up behind Hitler's back.

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17-12-2013, 08:31 AM
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
(17-12-2013 08:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(17-12-2013 08:13 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Thoughts? Smartass

Hitler is an equal opportunity thread killer. Whichever side brings him up, loses. OK? Dodgy

Noted, and a good point. I am in NO way a Hitler fan, the man was obviously a mass murdering lunatic, but I hate when Theists try to equate Atheism/secular societies with the inevitable hitlerism. False logic.
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17-12-2013, 09:12 AM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2013 09:57 AM by WindyCityJazz.)
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

Yeah, Hitler was definitely an atheist!

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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17-12-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
A secular society is best?

Secular =/= scientific.

And without science & its explanations, religious thinking soon takes over.
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17-12-2013, 09:31 AM
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
(17-12-2013 09:24 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  A secular society is best?

Secular =/= scientific.

And without science & its explanations, religious thinking soon takes over.

hmmmm am I confused? I thought secular meant non religious, nothing to do with the removal of science.

1sec·u·lar adjective \ˈse-kyə-lər\
: not spiritual : of or relating to the physical world and not the spiritual world

: not religious

: of, relating to, or controlled by the government rather than by the church

Please expound, maybe I misunderstood you, or the definition of secularism.. Consider
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17-12-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
Hilter was an atheist proof :-

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17-12-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: Hitler wasn't an Atheist, and a secular society is best
(17-12-2013 10:35 AM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Hilter was an atheist proof :-


Not sure where you got this, but he never publicly claimed to be an atheist. Never. I thinks someone fooled you with their creative use of translation. Read my original post.
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