Hmmm...
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18-09-2014, 06:52 AM
RE: Hmmm...
(18-09-2014 06:28 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  See - to me atheism is the default position so they automatically fall into that category...

I do agree with that, but babies really do not have much of a grasp of anything beyond I am hungry, I am dirty, I am lonely. They get taught to be religious when older. I also think there is a bit of silliness pointing out that something that does not have much ability to think is this or that.
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18-09-2014, 07:52 AM
RE: Hmmm...
Hope this sets out my position...





"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



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18-09-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Hmmm...
I guess my position is best summarized by the idea that to say that X doesn't believe in a god must, to have any value at all, presuppose that X has the ability to hold such a belief. The idea that a baby doesn't hold a belief in a god is no more meaningful to me than the idea that a worm doesn't hold a belief in a god. Until the cognitive development reaches the level where such concepts can be entertained it may be true in the strictest sense but doesn't tell us anything.

I do think that the claim the we are all born atheists can be used effectively but it is more of a shock tactic than anything really well-grounded.

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18-09-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: Hmmm...
(18-09-2014 10:56 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I guess my position is best summarized by the idea that to say that X doesn't believe in a god must, to have any value at all, presuppose that X has the ability to hold such a belief. The idea that a baby doesn't hold a belief in a god is no more meaningful to me than the idea that a worm doesn't hold a belief in a god. Until the cognitive development reaches the level where such concepts can be entertained it may be true in the strictest sense but doesn't tell us anything.

I do think that the claim the we are all born atheists can be used effectively but it is more of a shock tactic than anything really well-grounded.

Then, equally, people must stop saying "born Muslim", "born Christian", and so on.

If babies aren't atheists, they sure as shit ain't Christians or Muslims.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-09-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: Hmmm...
I prefer to characterize babies as atheists even if they aren't because it sets a ball in motion in a believers mind that they "became a believer" because of how they were raised. If they weren't raised with religious beliefs they would be atheists right now.

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18-09-2014, 11:23 AM
RE: Hmmm...
(18-09-2014 11:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 10:56 AM)unfogged Wrote:  I guess my position is best summarized by the idea that to say that X doesn't believe in a god must, to have any value at all, presuppose that X has the ability to hold such a belief. The idea that a baby doesn't hold a belief in a god is no more meaningful to me than the idea that a worm doesn't hold a belief in a god. Until the cognitive development reaches the level where such concepts can be entertained it may be true in the strictest sense but doesn't tell us anything.

I do think that the claim the we are all born atheists can be used effectively but it is more of a shock tactic than anything really well-grounded.

Then, equally, people must stop saying "born Muslim", "born Christian", and so on.

If babies aren't atheists, they sure as shit ain't Christians or Muslims.

I agree, they are not religious anything and do not have the ability to even think about it.
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18-09-2014, 11:25 AM
RE: Hmmm...
I agree with the OP video.
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18-09-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: Hmmm...
(18-09-2014 11:10 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I prefer to characterize babies as atheists even if they aren't because it sets a ball in motion in a believers mind that they "became a believer" because of how they were raised. If they weren't raised with religious beliefs they would be atheists right now.

Exactly - regardless of choice - atheism is the default position...


"Name me a moral statement made or moral action performed that could not have been made or done, by a non-believer..." - Christopher Hitchens



My youtube musings: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfFoxbz...UVi1pf4B5g
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18-09-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: Hmmm...
(18-09-2014 11:28 AM)CiderThinker Wrote:  
(18-09-2014 11:10 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I prefer to characterize babies as atheists even if they aren't because it sets a ball in motion in a believers mind that they "became a believer" because of how they were raised. If they weren't raised with religious beliefs they would be atheists right now.

Exactly - regardless of choice - atheism is the default position...

Are babies even spiritual beings in the first place?

Their more animal than man at that point. Implicitly are animals atheists?
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18-09-2014, 11:36 AM
RE: Hmmm...
I believe we are all born without any concept of a god and, if true, I concur with the position that this means we are born atheist.

However, this won't be acceptable to theists for the simple reason that they believe in a god and theoretically it's possible to them that such a god could instill us with knowledge of itself during the creation process. I don't see a way of establishing clearly one way or another what one knows or does not know at birth in this regard. To me, it's logical to assume, for reasons based on our knowledge that we evolved and were not created, that we are born without knowledge of any gods. But, of course, theists don't start with the acceptance that we were not created so the point is somewhat useless in conversations with them.

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