Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
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22-05-2012, 02:44 AM
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
I felt bad about having been in the middle east for over ten years and learned none of the language so I spent a lot of money on lessons. That was a complete waste of time, everyone I deal with speaks English and my Arabic friends just laughed at my attempts.

I don't feel integrated into this country in the slightest and like the muslims in Holland and the UK, I don't want to be, but I get absolutely NO assistance from the government here.

The islamic laws are watered down enough to be merely annoying but break the law as a foreigner and you're fucked, run into financial trouble, you're fucked, there are no special dispensations for being from a different culture like those in Europe. I'm very much on their turf at my own risk.

'The world holds two classes of men: intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence.' - Abdallah al-Ma'arri
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22-05-2012, 02:59 AM
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
(22-05-2012 02:44 AM)daylightisabadthing Wrote:  I felt bad about having been in the middle east for over ten years and learned none of the language so I spent a lot of money on lessons. That was a complete waste of time, everyone I deal with speaks English and my Arabic friends just laughed at my attempts.

I don't feel integrated into this country in the slightest and like the muslims in Holland and the UK, I don't want to be, but I get absolutely NO assistance from the government here.

The islamic laws are watered down enough to be merely annoying but break the law as a foreigner and you're fucked, run into financial trouble, you're fucked, there are no special dispensations for being from a different culture like those in Europe. I'm very much on their turf at my own risk.
Interesting. I wanna one day move to Dubai or Abu Dhabi or some other UAE city in the future. Just looks like a fun place to live.

The difference between you going there is, like you said, they all speak the English.
That is different from someone who doesn't know any English and moves to a country that is primarily English speaking.
I can imagine it would be even worst in Holland, I mean who the fuck learns dutch? no offense

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22-05-2012, 04:29 AM
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
*dutch guy here *
How old is that article?
Donner hasn't been minister for quite some time and the ban on Burqas already exists as well.

The problem with immigrants isn't so much them being there, but them trying to live and reshape society around them in a way that suits them better. Take muslim immigrants, they treat women the same as they would in the middle-east and outside the home they also try to establish dominance, thereby ruining (imho) a society that tries to live in harmony. It's a very disruptive element.

Another interresting point is that immigration from countries outside of Europe started after WW2, these guestlaborers were invited to come help rebuild the country that was bombed to shit. Everyone expected them to leave afterwards and no-one thought about the long term. For years they were only known as guest-laborers. This term then got a negative connotation and was replaced with 'allochtoon' wich referred to any immigrant. It is also commonly used for 2nd and 3rd generation offspring. However, due maybe in part to xenophobia, but generally assumed due to higher criminality (90% of immigrants have come into contact with law enforcement) this term also got a negative connotation. It's pretty much a racial slur now.
Some politicians suggested replacing this with 'nieuwe-nederlanders' or 'new-dutchman' but this is ofcourse just fighting a symptom, not solving the cause.

So, to compare, western Europe might not have fanatical christians like the USA, but it has far more assertive muslims.
Feom an atheist standpoint... Which is worse?

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22-05-2012, 05:23 AM
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
Thanks for pointing that out Caveman, the post is dated last June.

'The world holds two classes of men: intelligent men without religion, and religious men without intelligence.' - Abdallah al-Ma'arri
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22-05-2012, 09:35 AM
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
Quote:The Dutch government says it will abandon the long-standing model of multiculturalism that has encouraged Muslim immigrants to create a parallel society within the Netherlands.
A new integration bill (covering letter and 15-page action plan), which Dutch Interior Minister Piet Hein Donner presented to parliament on June 16, reads: “The government shares the social dissatisfaction over the multicultural society model and plans to shift priority to the values of the Dutch people. In the new integration system, the values of the Dutch society play a central role. With this change, the government steps away from the model of a multicultural society.”
1) This is old news: the abovementioned letter by the Dutch Interior Minister to Parliament was presented a year ago, in 2011.

2) The Dutch finally realized that promoting the 'multicultural society' is akin to promoting Apartheid, because it means – just like Apartheid – that every cultural group keeps its own cultural values, attitudes, and M.O.s separate (= apart) from other cultural groups so that you get a society consisting of very different 'tribes'. With all the risks – nay, the certainty – of growing divides and aggression.
This obviously would never lead to an integrated society, which is (or ought to be) the goal of any society/country.
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22-05-2012, 12:22 PM
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
I'm a little confused though.

Why is every confrontation with Muslims somehow about wearing a headscarf???

The drivers license pic posted by Filox is ridiculous. OK. So law enforcement should be allowed if there is a need to see the face. Right? The face must appear in a license or similar document. There can be those sorts of laws in place.

But I fail to see that if a woman wants to wear a headscarf, a *law* is necessary to prevent that.
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23-05-2012, 06:42 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2012 06:52 AM by Scarlet Pimpernel.)
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
(22-05-2012 12:22 PM)morondog Wrote:  I'm a little confused though.

Why is every confrontation with Muslims somehow about wearing a headscarf???
Because a headscarf is culturally symbolic for the repression of women. Mind: culturally! Not religiously! The Qur'An does not prescribe the wearing of headscarves (or burkas, or niqaabs, etc.) by women! The Qur'An does not require women to be invisible!
So any claim by Muslims that the Qur'An "commands" women to wear headscarves, burkas, or niqaabs (etc.) is totally bullshit. Those Muslims are extremely ignorant Muslims (like most are...): they don't know their own holy book.
99% of Muslims never read the Qur'An (like 99% of Catholics never read the bible...) so they have no clue what it really says. They just parrot priests/Mullahs/each other without, literally, knowing what they are talking about.
The egalitarian Dutch culture/society does not accept that women are forced by their men to openly display themselves as second class citizens.

Quote:OK. So law
enforcement should be allowed if there is a need to see the face. Right?
It is! Authorities can demand veils etc. to be lifted to check ID. Exactly like e.g. motorbike helmets, sunglasses, etc.

Quote:The face must appear in a license or similar document.
It does.

Quote:There can be
those sorts of laws in place.
They are.

Quote:But I fail to see that if a woman wants to wear a headscarf, a *law* is necessary to prevent that.
The problem is that women do not wear headscarves, burkas, niqaabs, etc., because they want to do that of their own free will but because they are forced to do that by their culture (= their menfolk)!


BTW: a headscarf does not hide the face. Consequently it is not illegal to wear a headscarf in public.
Wearing headscarves, however, like Christian cross pendants, is not accepted by some employers (a minority) who demand their personnel to be culturally and religiously neutral in dealing with customers and each other.
If that personnel wants to wear headscarves, burkas, and niqaabs they can do that in their own free time, not in the boss' time. So if a woman wears a burka or niqaab she will not find paid work in Holland. She is unemployed. And unemployed people claim dole. They can only get dole if they are 'employable' and demonstrate a considerable effort to find work/to be acceptable for prospective employers. Wearing burkas and niqaabs is not demonstrating a considerable effort to find work/to be acceptable for prospective employers. Quite the contrary. So they don't get dole.
Unsurprisingly these women – actually their husbands because Muslim women are not supposed to/don't speak to strangers; especially men – loudly shout they are being discriminated for their religion. WHICH THEY ARE NOT! It's got nothing to do with their religion, but it's got everything to do with being (and making an effort to be) employable. Which they aren't/don't, under pressure from their culture/menfolk!


The security angle:
Burkas and niqaabs hide the whole face and the whole body. It is not possible to see if there is a man or a woman under them, or, more importantly, what they carry under that robe. In this age of suicide bombers wearing bomb belts that is a grave concern. This is the reason they are trying to ban them (hasn't happened yet; you can still see burkas and niqaabs everyday in the streets of Holland although they are rare exceptions).
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23-05-2012, 08:14 AM
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
(23-05-2012 06:42 AM)Scarlet Pimpernel Wrote:  The security angle:
Burkas and niqaabs hide the whole face and the whole body. It is not possible to see if there is a man or a woman under them, or, more importantly, what they carry under that robe. In this age of suicide bombers wearing bomb belts that is a grave concern. This is the reason they are trying to ban them (hasn't happened yet; you can still see burkas and niqaabs everyday in the streets of Holland although they are rare exceptions).
So does a damn *dress* hide the whole body. I think we should legislate that everyone must wear a bikini at all times. Dodgy

Security is a legitimate concern I guess. Just this seems to me like infringement of freedom *in the name* of security... "You are too big and muscular, you could easily kill me, in fact lots of big muscular people kill other people, therefore I legislate that you must wear an electric shock collar at all times, to prevent you from having that opportunity"...

Although having said that I've never been at risk for something like a suicide bombing - in SA people are waaaay more chilled, although in the grand tradition of catch up our politicians like to play with the first world I'm sure it won't last.
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23-05-2012, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2012 11:21 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
The issue with certain clothing from the middle east is definitely understandable. Any crimes happening in their country are caused by people wearing the religious coverings in order to be anonymous. Islam, and Judaism have some religious outfits that allow for total anonymity which should be worried about. It's just a terrible idea to allow someone to have an outfit that lets them enter restricted areas and cause problems without being known.

Bucky I have a huge question for you. Not all people find learning a new english simple or even doable. The older you are the harder it can be. When a family moves to a new country it is often more for the children who integrate much better. Say a woman comes to the US at 40, and even at 60 she still needs a translator for the doctor. You are aware that medical terms are not the average terms used in day to day speaking right? You can go shopping with a lot less sophisticated language than you will need to use in a doctors office. Plenty of people who use a medical translator are able to speak the local language ok, but they'll understand the important medical information better if they have someone ensuring that they know what is being said.

As far as the signing off and waivers, that's one of many idiotic policies made for immigrants. Or for that matter non-immigrants (illegals). There is legislation in place to (secretively) make using illegal workers easier. If there wasn't I wouldn't have been working at target 8 years ago overnight next to the contracted illegal immigrant cleaning crew. A few of them knew english ok, and they all travelled together and lived together. They were the cleaning crew due to being as cheap as possible and only over night to keep public from knowing. I'd say if you want to complain complain about the many things made to simplify illegal workers. Legal immigrants go through paperwork and many screenings and issues (unless they are brought over due to a danger to self where they are).

I'm in Montreal half the time hiding in the house because it's my first time to not know the main language =p I spoke italian in italy and japanese in japan, but I have so little understanding of french. Everywhere I've been there were always english speaking people somewhere, but still I hate forcing others to change for me. But that's just me, there are people who know what they know to live and aren't interested in learning more. Realize that many older women who travel with a family to a foreign country aren't applying for jobs. If they are happy with what they have it should be ok. There is no reason to remove medical translators though, because they can always be important.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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23-05-2012, 11:27 AM
RE: Holland kills the multiculturalism that is killing it
My mom and step dad live next door to a Filipino family. Three generations live there, and the youngest two of the three kids were born here. The grandmother doesn't speak any English, and the parents struggle with it a great deal. Most of the time, when necessary, the oldest child translates for them.

The language barrier is not for lack of effort. The older people in the house find English extremely difficult. But their efforts to "integrate" continue. I have spent some great times with them, all without language as a means of communication. They taught me to make Filipino barbecue. They shared their culture, and enriched my life. They have also eagerly learned everything they can from me and my family. But they are still very much Filipino. I'd have it no other way given a choice.

Unfortunately, "integrate" too often means "be like us" instead of just finding a way to be part of a community. As far as I'm concerned, this family's lack of "integration" enriches the community, and brings diversity. Alas, so many others see this ad not wanting to be Canadian. If only they realized that my friends make Canada what it is.

Sure, I get the safety issues with burkas and whatnot, but condemning multiculturalism is nothing but racism. Expecting someone to communicate in a language they have a hard time learning is stupid. Expecting them to make an effort to contribute to those around them is all I ask, and this family is damn good evidence that language isn't an insurmountable barrier.

Open your minds, and look past this. You'll not regret what it brings to your life.

Just visiting.

-SR
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