Poll: Should Holocaust Denial Be Considered A Crime
Yes
No
Only in countries where the holocaust took place
I'm as yet undecided
I have no idea, hell, I'd don't even know why I'm voting
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Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
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12-03-2012, 07:13 PM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2012 07:32 PM by TheArcticSage.)
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(11-03-2012 08:56 AM)Dunhill808 Wrote:  Newsflash: We all have stupid ideas, we have to get through them to get to the good ones. In short; no, a person who denounces evidence backed history should not be held as a criminal. If we did that then we would have to lock up all the JFK conspiracy nuts and 9/11 Truthers.

JFK died under very suspicious circumstances, further investigation pending though it is a high possibility it was an inside job. 9/11 was an inside job, though I am not a 'truther' a truther is someone who is willing to believe the most ridiculous things revolving around the 9/11 plot. Including there were no planes that flew into the twin towers, and I think even something about aliens. Though the truth is always much more refined (thermite).

While we're talking about this here's a little video to lighten the mood.





You're lack of suspicion disturbs me, don't you ever question anything?

(10-03-2012 10:25 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  Over on TheArcticSage's rather controversial Was the Holocaust .... a lie? thread a rather interesting topic was mentioned but kinda got lost in the debate. I thought this topic was worthy of it's own thread and so here we are.

Here is a good place to say: We have the above thread for discussing the legitimacy of the holocaust, and I'd prefer this one not to descend into a discussion on that!

The topic I'm referring to is whether Holocaust Denial should be a crime.

I personally think it shouldn't be. I have no doubts that the holocaust happened and I understand that the denial of those events can be distressing to the Jewish community, especially those who were directly affected. However, I also believe in free speech and cannot condone such a blatant violation of an individuals free speech. Removing free speech from historical events is only a small step from removing it from political discussion (which is why I'm also against the banned of any party in a democracy, even the Nazi's), which is only a small step from a fascist dictatorship.

What are anyone else's views on this topic?


Yeah I want Holocaust Denial to be a crime... absolutely! NO OF COURSE I DON'T! As for distressing the Jewish community I don't care about that, I don't care about emotional pain I only care about the people who are actually suffering, REAL PAIN, physical pain, torture, yeah if the holocaust happened I would care. In fact it's because I thought it happened that I cared so much to research into it's entirety. But right now all I see is a bunch of liars who have abused the natural ability of humans to care. And I don't take to kindly to that, being lied to, lies are everywhere... and I don't fancy to much for believing in them. I care about the knowing the truth to, because if I know the truth I can care for the right people.

And do you really think the government cares about emotional pain? This entire thing happening in Europe, it's like a dictatorship. Hate Speech is a crime, holocaust denial or questioning the holocaust is crime, murderers and rapists roam the streets because executing them is illegal. Their government doesn't care about murderers or rapists hurting people, but they care deeply if you insult their memory of the holocaust?

Something ain't right with that wouldn't you agree? They didn't make it illegal to question the holocaust because they care... they made it illegal, because a lot of things depend on people believing it.

One more thing, you talk about freedom as if the government could just take it away or give it, freedom is not like that, freedom is a state of mind... not everyone achieves it.
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12-03-2012, 07:32 PM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(12-03-2012 07:13 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  Yeah I want Holocaust Denial to be a crime... absolutely! NO OF COURSE I DON'T! As for distressing the Jewish community I don't care about that, I don't care about emotional pain I only care about the people who are actually suffering, REAL PAIN, physical pain, torture, yeah if the holocaust happened I would care. In fact it's because I thought it happened that I cared so much to research into it's entirety. But right now all I see is a bunch of liars who have abused the natural ability of humans to care. And I don't take to kindly to that, being lied to, lies are everywhere... and I don't fancy to much for believing in them. I care about the knowing the truth to, because if I know the truth I can care for the right people.

And do you really think the government cares about emotional pain? This entire thing happening in Europe, it's like a dictatorship. Hate Speech is a crime, holocaust denial or questioning the holocaust is crime, murderers and rapists roam the streets because executing them is illegal. Their government doesn't care about murderers or rapists hurting people, but they care deeply if you insult their memory of the holocaust?

Something ain't right with that wouldn't you agree? They didn't make it illegal to question the holocaust because they care... they made it illegal, because a lot of things depend on people believing it.

One more thing, you talk about freedom as if the government could just take it away or give it, freedom is not like that, freedom is a state of mind... not everyone achieves it.

I'm really not gonna get into the validity of the holocaust here, we've already got a thread discussing it and I see no reason to derail this one by having exactly the same debate.

I will point out that Europe isn't a country, all the EU member states are Sovereign states with their own laws. Most don't have laws against holocaust denial though there are a few that do, most notably Germany.

I do agree with you about the laws generally being too soft, at least in the UK anyways. I don't know enough about other countries legal systems to comment.

And when I say 'freedom' I mean in a legal sense. I mean to have the freedom to think independently without fear of repercussions.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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12-03-2012, 07:36 PM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(12-03-2012 07:32 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  I'm really not gonna get into the validity of the holocaust here, we've already got a thread discussing it and I see no reason to derail this one by having exactly the same debate.

I will point out that Europe isn't a country, all the EU member states are Sovereign states with their own laws. Most don't have laws against holocaust denial though there are a few that do, most notably Germany.

I do agree with you about the laws generally being too soft, at least in the UK anyways. I don't know enough about other countries legal systems to comment.

And when I say 'freedom' I mean in a legal sense. I mean to have the freedom to think independently without fear of repercussions.

Laws repressing inquiry about the holocaust

17 countries made questioning the holocaust illegal with a union wide general rule about it. 17 is more than a few wouldn't you say? And the EUROPEAN UNION even made a decision about it. That's why I say Europe and not all the countries with laws against it... much easier to say Europe.
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12-03-2012, 10:01 PM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2012 10:20 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
Interesting that this thread is having someone attempt hard to derail it =p

Of course looking into the validity of facts must always be allowed. The world where there are things you can't question is the world where the average person has no power to do anything. People talking of how freedom can't be really taken by governments. If the repercussions are bad enough you will either shut yourself in and give up on all your outlandish thoughts, or they'll stifle your freedom with a bullet. Your free will is not something societies require. Be happy that you live somewhere where you can feel it's such an undeniable ability.

I've got some points of contention with free speech where I think it crosses the line but this is definitely not that case. The only time holocaust deniers should be dealt with is if they are active neo nazi radicals who attack others, or if they harrass others with their controversial opinion. Sadly one freedom I never took hold of in the US was the ability to point a gun at someone who came by soliciting =p Too bad I don't like guns.

We all get offended sometimes, but a world where we never do anything offensive is a world where we aren't living. There are limits to what is really the greater good.

And about serf's, while we still have the same glass cieling that societies have always had, a serf from the dark ages would be extremely jealous of any of us. Even if you don't have a house you have a lot more than they used to.

I haven't said anything for a while so felt like talking =p

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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12-03-2012, 10:20 PM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
No, questioning anything can never be a crime. But it can be stupid sometimes...

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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
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12-03-2012, 10:34 PM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(12-03-2012 10:01 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I haven't said anything for a while so felt like talking =p

You talk sense, so feel free to keep talkin'! Smile

Anyway, I vote "no" also. I think questioning everything is necessary, but sometimes the conclusions drawn are questionable themselves.
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12-03-2012, 11:52 PM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
I always found it incredibly suspicious that you need laws to decide whether something is true or not; especially considering the fact that the state Israel is practising almost the same principles against Palestinians...

If the truth is clear and present, it don't need no laws!

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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13-03-2012, 01:15 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(12-03-2012 10:01 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  And about serf's, while we still have the same glass cieling that societies have always had, a serf from the dark ages would be extremely jealous of any of us. Even if you don't have a house you have a lot more than they used to.

Yes. My point is that free speech to me is a weird idea. I appreciate having it and I will defend your right to say what you want but I still find it strange that it somehow has gotten enshrined in our collective consciousness as an unbreakable rule...
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13-03-2012, 04:00 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2012 04:02 AM by Eternal.)
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
Below is a direct quote from hitler to the amassed crowd at the sports palace in Berlin. The poor misunderstood little bunny that he is.

And we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews.

An entry from the diary of Goebbles.

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

I suppose the hitler speech and the diary are fakes too.
See it was all a big misunderstanding, they just misheard him.

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"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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13-03-2012, 04:08 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(13-03-2012 04:00 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Below is a direct quote from hitler to the amassed crowd at the sports palace in Berlin. The poor misunderstood little bunny that he is.

And we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews.

An entry from the diary of Goebbles.

February 14, 1942: The Führer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

I suppose the hitler speech and the diary are fakes too.


Please can you keep these sort of posts to the thread that is actually about the validity of the holocaust. (I mean the one in the 'Skepticism, Pseudoscience and Conspiracy Theories section, the one entitled Was the Holocaust... a lie?).

We have two holocaust threads currently being used, one for the validity of the holocaust, one for the legality of holocaust denial. Much as I like conversation to grow it seems pretty pointless for us to end up with two threads for holocaust validity and lose the topic of holocaust denial altogether.

Thank you everyone Smile.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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