Poll: Should Holocaust Denial Be Considered A Crime
Yes
No
Only in countries where the holocaust took place
I'm as yet undecided
I have no idea, hell, I'd don't even know why I'm voting
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Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
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15-03-2012, 05:21 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(15-03-2012 05:17 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  I think I agree with that. I just assumed everyone used negative rep in the same way as me.

Taking that into account do you not think that calling people hypocritical as he did is presumptuous and wrong. Wrong of course is down to perception, but by my standards which is all I can comment regarding, making a presumption then making a slur against that persons character based on it is wrong.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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15-03-2012, 05:28 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(15-03-2012 05:21 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Taking that into account do you not think that calling people hypocritical as he did is presumptuous and wrong. Wrong of course is down to perception, but by my standards which is all I can comment regarding, making a presumption then making a slur against that persons character based on it is wrong.

By 'he' I'm presuming you mean MJB?

It may not have occurred to him that anyone had any other uses for negative rep. It hadn't ever occurred to me.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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15-03-2012, 05:46 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(15-03-2012 05:28 AM)Hughsie Wrote:  By 'he' I'm presuming you mean MJB?

It may not have occurred to him that anyone had any other uses for negative rep. It hadn't ever occurred to me.

Yes I was referring to MJB.

Maybe it hasn't occurred to him. I still believe it to be incorrect though, I also think I have good reasoning on why it is. Reasoning that when explained you appear to agree with.

People not thinking enough is not a justification. If you are going to call someone a hypocrite you should be able to explain yourself. Do you think I should have let it go unchallenged on the basis that it hadn't occurred to him?

I once had a friend (he wasn't at first) that I grew to have a massive amount of respect for because he constantly corrected my assertions. He taught me that opinions have power, if you are going to express them without thinking them through then you are doing yourself an injustice.

Many atheists pride themselves on critical thinking, I just try to encourage people to use their brains a bit more effectively before engaging their mouths. He did not do this.

If someone points out a logical flaw in my reasoning and can explain it, then I like to think (no matter how arrogant I can appear at times) that I will acknowledge it, learn from it and move on. The failure to do so would be intellectual dishonesty.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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15-03-2012, 05:52 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(15-03-2012 05:46 AM)Eternal Wrote:  Yes I was referring to MJB.

Maybe it hasn't occurred to him. I still believe it to be incorrect though, I also think I have good reasoning on why it is. Reasoning that when explained you appear to agree with.

People not thinking enough is not a justification. If you are going to call someone a hypocrite you should be able to explain yourself. Do you think I should have let it go unchallenged on the basis that it hadn't occurred to him?

I once had a friend (he wasn't at first) that I grew to have a massive amount of respect for because he constantly corrected my assertions. He taught me that opinions have power, if you are going to express them without thinking them through then you are doing yourself an injustice.

Many atheists pride themselves on critical thinking, I just try to encourage people to use their brains a bit more effectively before engaging their mouths. He did not do this.

If someone points out a logical flaw in my reasoning and can explain it, then I like to think (no matter how arrogant I can appear at times) that I will acknowledge it, learn from it and move on. The failure to do so would be intellectual dishonesty.

I'm not saying that you should have let it go. But assuming that his definition of rep was the same as yours would mean you were just presumptuous as him.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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15-03-2012, 06:39 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
Perhaps it might help if I gave a direct response the rather pointed question of MJB

(13-03-2012 09:33 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  I like how many people overwhelmingly said no, yet so many gave TheArcticSage negative rep.

Hypocrite much?

I gave the little nazi boy a negative rep, because I thought rep meant reputable,
Little adolf is entitled to an opinion, what he is not entitled to is intentional obfuscation and dishonesty. You know, making shit up and telling lies and not answering direct pertinent questions. (however tersely they may be asked).
himmlers cut and paste sock puppetry I have come across before and my bullshit detector kicked in.
I found him a disreputable source of information because of this dishonesty.

As to whether it should be a criminal offence to deny, I think I covered that in my first response.

It is rather disingenuous to intentionally conflate the two seperate issues of Right to Freedom of speech and AcidicRages dishonesty. (The "hypocrite much" tag kinda through me off, due to there being a distinct lack of hypocrisy on my part)

If it was not intentional then I can apologise to MJB for not answering his question.

Rest assured I will not be using the rep button again if it has different meanings for folks.Smile

In life you can't have everything................. Where would you put it ?
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15-03-2012, 07:02 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
Quote:Giving him a negative reputation is showing you disagree with his opinion, not with his right to express it.

I agree this line is presumptuous of me. Thanks for pointing it out, it is noted.

However.

The point of it being wrong to base an accusation of hypocrisy based on an assumption stands regardless of our individual definitions. I based nothing on my definition of rep. My argument was made in the previous line. I made an assumption to give an example (in hindsight I should not have) but the argument was based on the fact that to be hypocritical someone must either stop him from posting, or actually say they think he has no right to express his opinion. Then they could be accused of being hypocritical. He bases his accusation on the fact someone gave negative rep, which I think we have shown requires an assumption. To slur someones character based on an assumption is doing that person an injustice.

I may not have reacted the way I did if it was of no consequence, nor am I one of the people that gave him negative rep (not that I wouldn't, I just don't pay any attention to it). I just think that an accusation of hypocrisy being levelled at someone should have sufficient reasoning or proof to back it up.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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15-03-2012, 07:09 AM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(14-03-2012 08:00 PM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  
(14-03-2012 07:43 PM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote:  Just as I thought you are a Nazi. You can hide it under the American flag or Aryan flag, but you are still a Nazi. I have dealt with people just like you all my life. All the puzzles as you put it cant hide what you really are. 9/11 crap and all. Give me a break. I seen your last bullshit post too.

Quote Hitler... become a Nazi. Smooth move Ohio Atheist, Quoting Hitler does not automatically deem me a Nazi. But the quote itself was simply coincide with your views on Israel. So does that mean you're a Nazi because you don't like the Israeli state? The fact is I had some people earlier completely denying that the Zionists/Jews ever had plans to go take over the Palestinian state and make it their own. That is was a quote from Adolf Hitler, before he died, Israel was created, after he died.

By the way if you deny the holocaust in Israel you'll be sent to prison for up to 5 years. You sir, are biased.
With good reason!

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free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their
political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their
own purpose. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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15-03-2012, 07:20 AM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2012 07:23 AM by bemore.)
RE: I voted 'no' because stupid isn't a crime.
(12-03-2012 06:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  I may not like what you say, but I will defend your right to say it.

I agree with MJB...... it is hippocritical that you say this and then give bad rep towards him/her.

Maybe you need to differentiate between the definition of reputation and opinion as you may have blurred the lines somewhere (Just my opinion, dont shoot me down in flames for it)

Quote:Holocaust denial? Really?

Those are your words chas..... you can spin whatever answer you want from this or try to define it in any way you care to, as is your right.

Anyway.........back to the subject.

People died in the war...... how many people exactly we will never know but history is written by the victors to suit there own "education" or version of events.

To deny people the right to question or express there views however hurting or cutting or whatever is exactly like what clydelee has said

Quote:It should be only in 1984.

Which if people are unware 1984 is a film that can be very easily found on youtube in parts and watched..... which shows a way of life that we currently share today in so many ways, if not as dramatic and probably a little more subtle.

So no I dont think that questioning anything should be made illegal...... because it then opens doors to other things that can be made into law.

Like denying Jesus Christ.
Like denying 9/11s offical events.
Like questioning the motives behind wars and who profits from them.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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17-03-2012, 04:50 PM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
Yes, simply because it begins with deniel and can easily escalate to a second Holocaust.
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17-03-2012, 05:20 PM
RE: Holocaust Denial ........ A Crime?
(17-03-2012 04:50 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Yes, simply because it begins with deniel and can easily escalate to a second Holocaust.

As atheism will lead to another Stalin? Should we all stop denying god then?
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