Holocaust denial
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25-04-2015, 02:21 AM
Holocaust denial
I would like to ask if there is any doubt that Hitler was responsible for Holocaust? Sometimes I heard that one can not be certain of his involvement as there isn't written order signed by him which explictly command commencing the extermination.

One could think that reasoning and arguments from scholar of such significance as Sir Ian Kershaw or Raul Hilberg would quell any claims to the contrary, but it is not the case. So it's Hitler culpability proven beyond doubt and ignored because of political agenda or prejudice or there is room for further research that could change our perception of Shoah?

Here are some links for reference:
http://ww2history.com/experts/Sir_Ian_Ke..._Holocaust
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american...tic-9.html

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25-04-2015, 03:19 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
Banhammer in 3... 2... 1...

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25-04-2015, 03:26 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
Why do we care whether or not he explicitly ordered it? He was a douche through and through no doubt, so... is there a point to trying to clear his name? Just finicky about history? What is scholarly consensus? If scholarly consensus is a. clear guilt b. possible guilt or c. no guilt then that's what I'll accept. Other than that it's vaguely interesting that X big name scholar doesn't accept Y widely-held viewpoint, but I honestly can't see the point of us discussing it. We're not experts.

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25-04-2015, 04:23 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2015 04:28 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 03:26 AM)morondog Wrote:  Why do we care whether or not he explicitly ordered it? He was a douche through and through no doubt, so... is there a point to trying to clear his name? Just finicky about history? What is scholarly consensus? If scholarly consensus is a. clear guilt b. possible guilt or c. no guilt then that's what I'll accept. Other than that it's vaguely interesting that X big name scholar doesn't accept Y widely-held viewpoint, but I honestly can't see the point of us discussing it. We're not experts.

I do not care if he explicitly ordered it, for he is responsible either way - Reich was regime where Hitler world was law, and as supreme leader he is held accountable for deeds of others. Moreover it's widely accepted that no one order existed as the Final Solution was cumulative process.

What's about clearing his name? It's certainly wasn't my intention. Rather I am interested in opinion of others about Holocaust denial - why in face of overwhelming evidence there are people who question involvement of Hitler? Is this result of some political agenda?

Scholarly consensus is that he is guilty, there is no doubt about it. But I don't see reason for which we couldn't discuss it.

(25-04-2015 03:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Banhammer in 3... 2... 1...

Why exactly?

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25-04-2015, 05:03 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 04:23 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 03:26 AM)morondog Wrote:  Why do we care whether or not he explicitly ordered it? He was a douche through and through no doubt, so... is there a point to trying to clear his name? Just finicky about history? What is scholarly consensus? If scholarly consensus is a. clear guilt b. possible guilt or c. no guilt then that's what I'll accept. Other than that it's vaguely interesting that X big name scholar doesn't accept Y widely-held viewpoint, but I honestly can't see the point of us discussing it. We're not experts.

I do not care if he explicitly ordered it, for he is responsible either way - Reich was regime where Hitler world was law, and as supreme leader he is held accountable for deeds of others. Moreover it's widely accepted that no one order existed as the Final Solution was cumulative process.

What's about clearing his name? It's certainly wasn't my intention. Rather I am interested in opinion of others about Holocaust denial - why in face of overwhelming evidence there are people who question involvement of Hitler? Is this result of some political agenda?

Scholarly consensus is that he is guilty, there is no doubt about it. But I don't see reason for which we couldn't discuss it.

(25-04-2015 03:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Banhammer in 3... 2... 1...

Why exactly?

It is amusing how some would posit it never happened, when there is a mountain of physical evidence. But then again, just the opposite happens too, billions of people believe in religious delusion and dogma, even when there is no supporting evidence, and a mountain of counter evidence. People are stupid, pretty much wraps that up. I mean, it is 2015, and there are people who proudly declare the world if flat, and all of us round world believers are all delusional.......

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

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25-04-2015, 05:19 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 05:03 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 04:23 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I do not care if he explicitly ordered it, for he is responsible either way - Reich was regime where Hitler world was law, and as supreme leader he is held accountable for deeds of others. Moreover it's widely accepted that no one order existed as the Final Solution was cumulative process.

What's about clearing his name? It's certainly wasn't my intention. Rather I am interested in opinion of others about Holocaust denial - why in face of overwhelming evidence there are people who question involvement of Hitler? Is this result of some political agenda?

Scholarly consensus is that he is guilty, there is no doubt about it. But I don't see reason for which we couldn't discuss it.


Why exactly?

It is amusing how some would posit it never happened, when there is a mountain of physical evidence. But then again, just the opposite happens too, billions of people believe in religious delusion and dogma, even when there is no supporting evidence, and a mountain of counter evidence. People are stupid, pretty much wraps that up. I mean, it is 2015, and there are people who proudly declare the world if flat, and all of us round world believers are all delusional.......

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

I would not call it amusing, moronic would fit better. And one wonder if stupidity is the cause.

As for similiarities with religion I think it's quite apt comparision, hovewer I'm afraid that there could be other reason than stupidity for the denialism.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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25-04-2015, 06:17 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2015 06:27 AM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 04:23 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 03:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Banhammer in 3... 2... 1...

Why exactly?

These threads never end well. The thread title is an invitation for every idiot with a swastika tattooed to his forehead to drift in from google and spread their douchebaggery.

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25-04-2015, 06:26 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 04:23 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I do not care if he explicitly ordered it, for he is responsible either way - Reich was regime where Hitler world was law, and as supreme leader he is held accountable for deeds of others.

It goes beyond his being the leader at the time; his writings and his speeches and other orders set the stage for what happened. Given his dictatorial position it would take a high level of gullibility to believe that he didn't know what was going on and approve it, if only tacitly. Whether or not he actually signed any specific orders he was still morally responsible.

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25-04-2015, 06:28 AM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2015 06:36 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 06:17 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 04:23 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Why exactly?

These threads never end well. The thread title is an invitation for every idiot with a swastika tattooed to his forehead to drift in from google and spread their douchbaggery.

Unfortunately that could be the case. Now I see that title of this thread isn't fitting but as far as I know, I can't change it.

I hope there will be no idiots in this thread, only people interested in constructive discussion.

(25-04-2015 06:26 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 04:23 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I do not care if he explicitly ordered it, for he is responsible either way - Reich was regime where Hitler world was law, and as supreme leader he is held accountable for deeds of others.

It goes beyond his being the leader at the time; his writings and his speeches and other orders set the stage for what happened. Given his dictatorial position it would take a high level of gullibility to believe that he didn't know what was going on and approve it, if only tacitly. Whether or not he actually signed any specific orders he was still morally responsible.

Of course. While he may not planned on killing since beginning of his political carier he certainly wanted throw Jews out of Germany. And I wholeheartedly agrree with you that he is morally responsible.

Yes believing that he don't know about killings indeed takes fair amount of gullibility, but it is nothing new. The king/tsar/leader newer know, he is good, it is his underlings who are guilty. Only strange thing in it is that this kind of thinking still exists.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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25-04-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
No. But what does that have to do with Holocaust denial?

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