Holocaust denial
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27-04-2017, 11:34 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
I will play the speech to this guy when and if possible. Yet i have close to no doubt that:

1) he knows it already
2) and thinks its faked
3) and or will rationalize away every single clear word of Himmler with the most weird and absurd interpretation of what Himmler could have possibly meant

I am long enough on TTA and have read enuff stuff from people like this, who will do any mental gymnastics to be able to believe what seems their desire to believe.

So, you may call it a kind of morbid curiosity when i am going to play it to this folk.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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27-04-2017, 11:45 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(27-04-2017 11:13 AM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  It was a CIA double! My uncle has a friend down at the Legion Hall who said so!"

Yeah, I know. For conspiracy theorists nothing's good enough. Even though the likes of Albert Speer fought teeth and nail to prove they hadn't been there when Himmler held his speech. Speer was personally adressed in another part of what Himmler said and he wanted to save his legend of being the good nazi, who hadn't first hand knowledge of the Holocaust.

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02-05-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
(27-04-2017 11:34 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  I will play the speech to this guy when and if possible. Yet i have close to no doubt that:

1) he knows it already
2) and thinks its faked
3) and or will rationalize away every single clear word of Himmler with the most weird and absurd interpretation of what Himmler could have possibly meant

I am long enough on TTA and have read enuff stuff from people like this, who will do any mental gymnastics to be able to believe what seems their desire to believe.

So, you may call it a kind of morbid curiosity when i am going to play it to this folk.

Well, you know how it goes; Don't confuse with facts my mind is made up, or words to that effect.

Today is the best day of my life and tomorrow will be even better.
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31-07-2017, 09:56 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
There are other genocides that people don't talk about, particularly in Turkey under the Ottomans, ie., the Greek Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide and the later Armenian Genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

I grew up in the sixties when there were a lot of WWII films on TV. My father served at the end of WWII and my uncle was in military intelligence for the British Army in Germany after WWII. The funny thing is that neither of them ever mentioned the holocaust and they never say themselves as having joined up because of it. I mentioned it once to my mother, whose education was interrupted by WWII when she was sent at age 14 to work as a clerk in a Welsh coal mine, and her response was that there were 50 million people killed in WWII, most of them not Jewish. She lost her chance to finish school. Her father had fought in the trenches in WWII and my other grandfather was below decks at Jutland on Warspite when it was holed 150 times. War is hell, people get killed.

I worked in Toronto during the Zundel trials and the atmosphere around town was extremely unpleasant. In fact, I moved to England during the trials. I found the whole thing to be very distasteful. The issue in the case was whether Zundel was spreading "false news". I thought the charge was silly because this was an offence which related to current news, not historical issues. However, rehashing it all in public backfired because he was eventually acquitted because he was exercising his free speech.

It also gave Zundel the opportunity to raise issues about the truth of the Holocaust story which have now become "common knowledge". Following that, there has been a lot of discussion of the number of people who died and how they died, just like in the Armenian Genocide and it misses the mark because it isn't the real issue.

My view of the whole thing is that it's not a question of how many people died in WWII and what their ethnicity was. These types of practices have to end. The European Union, by allowing free trade and movement of peoples ended the prospect of wars in Europe because the nationalities are now intermingled. That is the way to look at this issue and that is why the EU was awarded a Nobel Prize in 2012. This is why I find it so upsetting when you hear people like Trump supporting UK withdrawal from the EU. Has he no understanding of history at all? (dumb question). I live in a country made up of people who were ethnically cleansed after years of inter-community murder and war. They want to be accepted by the international community but those on the other side continue to deny them their basic human rights and want to keep this conflict going forever. What is worse, the EU and the UN, and the US all sanction this denial of human rights so that children here can't compete in international sporting events, have their university degrees recognized abroad, etc etc.

Here's what the Nobel committee said about the EU:

"The decision highlighted the reconciliation of France and Germany, stating that "over a seventy-year period, Germany and France had fought three wars. Today war between Germany and France is unthinkable. This shows how, through well-aimed efforts and by building up mutual confidence, historical enemies can become close partners." The decision also highlighted the EU's contribution to the "introduction of democracy" in Greece, Spain and Portugal, the advancing of democracy and human rights in Turkey, the strengthening of democracy in Eastern Europe following the Revolutions of 1989 and overcoming of "the division between East and West" and ethnically based national conflicts, and finally the EU's contribution to the "process of reconciliation in the Balkans."

If only they actually lived up to this today...
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03-08-2017, 05:41 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
I think I need to qualify what I said in the last post. As a child i grew up watching programs about the Holocaust and developed a deep loathing of anti-semitism and have worked for Jewish businesses throughout my life. What I meant about Zundel was that I found the whole idea of him even being a platform to have been a mistake. He is an utterly revolting man, as was his lawyer. What happened as a result of the trial was that a lot of people learned about revisionism. Arguing over numbers of people who died is distasteful and I try not to get involved in this sort of debate.

Had the EU existed sooner, the Holocaust would not have happened. It's a shame people only think of it as an economic organization. It was set up to stop wars and protect human rights by ending the sort of conflicts which result in the rise of nationalist movements which then "cleanse" those who are not of their group. European wars and ethnic cleansing go hand in hand.
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03-08-2017, 06:19 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
The holocaust was just the beginning. The Nazis had plans to kill millions more, plans that were never completed becuase they lost WW2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_Plan

The Hunger Plan (German: der Hungerplan; der Backe-Plan) was a plan developed by Nazi Germany during World War II to seize food from the Soviet Union and give it to German soldiers and civilians; the plan entailed the death by starvation of millions of "racially inferior" Slavs following Operation Barbarossa, the 1941 invasion of the Soviet Union. The premise behind the Hunger Plan was that Germany was not self-sufficient in food supplies, and to sustain the war and keep up the domestic morale it needed to obtain the food from conquered lands at any cost. It was an engineered famine, planned and implemented as an act of policy. This plan was developed during the planning phase for the Wehrmacht (German Armed Forces) invasion and provided for diverting of the Ukrainian food stuffs away from central and northern Russia and redirecting them for the benefit of the invading army and the population in Germany. The plan resulted in the deaths of millions of people.[1] The plan as a means of mass murder was outlined in several documents, including one that became known as Göring's Green Folder, which quoted a number of "20 to 30 million" expected Russian deaths from "military actions and crises of food supply."

....

The Nazi's also starved France during their occupation of France. Purposefully.

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03-08-2017, 07:20 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(26-04-2017 04:44 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Just listened to a small discussion between two co workers across my desk (in the lab). Was something about poilitics. I then mentioned "this is as stupid as Sean Spicer saying that Assad was worse than Hitler. Yet we all know that Hitler gassed 6mio (partially of his own countrymen) people". One of the two guys turned to me and said matter.of.fact.style. "I doubt it was 6mio".

Me: "5mio then? Seriously?"
He: "Well, i doubt it was really an holocaust at all. Lets have a look at the protocols of the Nuremberg trials, and bla bla bla"

He then tried to keep arguing with the argument of global conspiracy and called himself a "sceptic". At this point i told him that the problem is not my political correctness, political affiliation or love of Jews, neither what is "being taught" in any school, but his standard for believing things, no matter what. If his standard is so high as to be *sceptic* about holocaust, i said, then he must be sceptic of gravitation as well, or probably the Vietnam war, since we have just as much evidence for this. He didnt like to have his (double) standard questioned. He further went along the line of "having special knowledge" and "mainstream is wrong" bla bla bla, you know the routine.

At the end i clearly told him (just to take that argument from persecution from him) that i respect his right for a stupid belief but not his bullshit belief itself. As long as i am around and he is trying to sell this irrational bullshit to others (another colleague who is sometimes influenced by this idiot), in public, i will not allow him to do this unwithspoken. I will not give credit to his bullshit by even starting a discussion about this. I flat out denied when he tried to start such an argument.
He can think and say whatever he likes, but he has to take the consequences, thats what i clearly told him.
Although public denial of holocaust is illegal here, i wont run to the police i told him, i dont give a fuck, but i will call him out for his bullshit, in front of everyone.

What i learned is: No matter if you are a studied person, no matter if you are a capable engineer, no matter if you are an all nice and reasonable person otherwise, you still can hold a shitload of irrational beliefs (i admit he is also into chemtrails n stuff, a very classic conspiracy theorist with "i have special knowledge you havent). I guess thats why the (alt) right is not entirely full of uneducated, unemployed skinheads.

Thanks to you guys (i think) i handeled this correctly. Thumbsup Would have probably been different a few years ago.

My maternal grandfather was with British forces who liberated Bergen Belsen, I can say as a relative to an eyewitness the holocaust was very real indeed, show your work colleague this post although he sounds like he's emotionally invested in the conspiracy theory so it probably won't help but its maybe worth a go to try and pull his ass out of the bullshit.
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03-08-2017, 07:59 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
This kind of shit is so fucked up.

The kinds of propaganda that the Nazis used for dehumanizing and demonizing of different groups of people is horrifyingly still an issue today. And denying that the Holocaust happened, or downplaying its role in the Nazi effort is an affront to both the victims (either killed, captured, or terrorized), and to efforts undertaken today as means of avoiding future genocides and wars. There is so much about the Nazi effort that should teach about why we should absolutely avoid putting people like Trump (and just about everyone in his cabinet) in power.

Also, I think that what Deltrabravo said about the EU is true, that it is also a means of strengthening bonds between countries and sowing into a peace environment. But I don't think anyone was arguing that it wasn't, are they?

Also other genocides are probably largely ignored- at least by American society at large. I think because they seem less relevant in that maybe Americans didn't fight as much in those wars? I'm not sure why. Or maybe because the monsters that were the Nazis are so compelling as an evil character that others aren't so much represented in Western media? I'm not sure. But it's a mildly interesting topic.
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03-08-2017, 10:28 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(03-08-2017 07:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  This kind of shit is so fucked up.

The kinds of propaganda that the Nazis used for dehumanizing and demonizing of different groups of people is horrifyingly still an issue today. And denying that the Holocaust happened, or downplaying its role in the Nazi effort is an affront to both the victims (either killed, captured, or terrorized), and to efforts undertaken today as means of avoiding future genocides and wars. There is so much about the Nazi effort that should teach about why we should absolutely avoid putting people like Trump (and just about everyone in his cabinet) in power.

Also, I think that what Deltrabravo said about the EU is true, that it is also a means of strengthening bonds between countries and sowing into a peace environment. But I don't think anyone was arguing that it wasn't, are they?

Also other genocides are probably largely ignored- at least by American society at large. I think because they seem less relevant in that maybe Americans didn't fight as much in those wars? I'm not sure why. Or maybe because the monsters that were the Nazis are so compelling as an evil character that others aren't so much represented in Western media? I'm not sure. But it's a mildly interesting topic.

Definitely not arguing especially as I voted remain although ironically it's Britains isolation as an island its naval strength and the Luftwaffes mistakes during the battle of Britain that saw us through until the Americans came in fully rather than just lend lease. Without Britain and its stand against the Nazis the yanks would have had no giant unsinkable base with which to launch bombing of Germany and the invasion on D day, its our former quirkiness that allowed a united Europe to come into existence in the first place.
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03-08-2017, 10:38 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(03-08-2017 07:59 AM)Emma Wrote:  This kind of shit is so fucked up.

The kinds of propaganda that the Nazis used for dehumanizing and demonizing of different groups of people is horrifyingly still an issue today. And denying that the Holocaust happened, or downplaying its role in the Nazi effort is an affront to both the victims (either killed, captured, or terrorized), and to efforts undertaken today as means of avoiding future genocides and wars. There is so much about the Nazi effort that should teach about why we should absolutely avoid putting people like Trump (and just about everyone in his cabinet) in power.

Also, I think that what Deltrabravo said about the EU is true, that it is also a means of strengthening bonds between countries and sowing into a peace environment. But I don't think anyone was arguing that it wasn't, are they?

Also other genocides are probably largely ignored- at least by American society at large. I think because they seem less relevant in that maybe Americans didn't fight as much in those wars? I'm not sure why. Or maybe because the monsters that were the Nazis are so compelling as an evil character that others aren't so much represented in Western media? I'm not sure. But it's a mildly interesting topic.

The Genocides in Turkey are denied by the Turks who say that the deaths occurred on long marches in hot weather. The problem is that these marches were to the middle of nowhere without adequate food and water so the result was inevitable

I have a particular bee in my bonnet about Brexit and the reemergence of nationalism in the UK. What is happening there now is deplorable because it is entirely a result of bigotry. The main beef Brexiteers have with the EU is that it has allowed lots of Eastern Europeans into the country, mainly Poles..."they take away our jobs". It affects me because, at the moment, I live outside the EU but in an area over which the EU claims jurisdiction, but has embargoed. Technically, I live in the EU, according to EU law, but I get none of the benefits. If Brexit goes through and this place is handed back by the occupying armed forces here, I won't be a citizen of the EU so I'll lose all my rights to medical care and the right to reside and work, as will my son, that we would have if the UK remains in the EU.

I also wouldn't mind living in France but again, I would be just a foreigner there with no rights. So, I understand what it's like to be "f.cked" by nationalism. It's not so much for me, but for my son who is still in school. If he goes to university here, his degree won't be recognized in other countries due to the international sanctions.

I see now that F.ckface von Clownstick has decided that immigrants to the US will now have to speak English... I've now lived in four different countries and, basically, wherever you go, everyone is the same. I don't believe that any group of people should be able to deny others the right of free movement in the world. No one "owns" the planet or any part of it, or the air we breath.

With ethnic cleansing you have a denial of the right to exist. You end up feeling that you have no right to live because you aren't a member of the group who "own" the place you live in, but you can't go back to where you came from. I thought international law had moved on and that no one could be made "stateless", but it's still ok here, for instance, to deport a child born in this country even as an infant.

You look at the position of Israel. Millions of persecuted and poor people from all over the world went to the US, and Canada. They were welcomed. But persecuted people from Europe who want to move to the Near East? That's a different story. These "old world" cultures are selfish, inward-looking and brutally stupid. It's just fine for anyone from a Middle Eastern country to move to the US and then boast about how they are proud of being an American. But there's no reciprocity because all these countries, here in the Near East, are totally racist in their immigration policies and cultures.
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