Holocaust denial
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25-04-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 12:41 PM)Alex K Wrote:  No. But what does that have to do with Holocaust denial?

Isn't claiming that Hitler didn't know about genocide/didn't explicitly ordered it some form of denialism? Rationalwiki.org says that one form of denial is claiming that Hitler protected Jews, so I think claiming that Hitler didn't know/didn't explicitly ordered also is some kind of Holocaust denial.

Hovewer title of thread indeed could be different.

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25-04-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 01:01 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Isn't claiming that Hitler didn't know about genocide/didn't explicitly ordered it some form of denialism? Rationalwiki.org says that one form of denial is claiming that Hitler protected Jews, so I think claiming that Hitler didn't know/didn't explicitly ordered also is some kind of Holocaust denial.

Hovewer title of thread indeed could be different.

January 30th 1939, Adolf Hitler:

Quote: If the international finance-Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations into a world war yet again, then the outcome will not be the victory of Jewry, but rather the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!

He knew, he planned it and he had his faithful minions to carry out his wishes. Hitler didn't put anything in writing if he could help it. Also, do you take him for a complete idiot, who didn't know that millions and resources needed for the war effort, went into building death camps and trains were redirected to feed the man eating machinery?

It's pure apologetic idiocy to assume Hitler wasn't informed about the program. Even more so, since there wasn't that big of a secret surrounding the holocaust. Soldiers knew about it, since they couldn't help witnessing it and they talked about it back home. Himmler gave speeches, his most famous one in october 1943 at Posen, where he adressed senior SS-Officers at a conference. Goebbels wrote about it in his diary in 1942. So this notion of Hitler being the only one not being informed is beyond stupid.
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25-04-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 02:31 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 01:01 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Isn't claiming that Hitler didn't know about genocide/didn't explicitly ordered it some form of denialism? Rationalwiki.org says that one form of denial is claiming that Hitler protected Jews, so I think claiming that Hitler didn't know/didn't explicitly ordered also is some kind of Holocaust denial.

Hovewer title of thread indeed could be different.

January 30th 1939, Adolf Hitler:

Quote: If the international finance-Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations into a world war yet again, then the outcome will not be the victory of Jewry, but rather the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!

He knew, he planned it and he had his faithful minions to carry out his wishes. Hitler didn't put anything in writing if he could help it. Also, do you take him for a complete idiot, who didn't know that millions and resources needed for the war effort, went into building death camps and trains were redirected to feed the man eating machinery?

It's pure apologetic idiocy to assume Hitler wasn't informed about the program. Even more so, since there wasn't that big of a secret surrounding the holocaust. Soldiers knew about it, since they couldn't help witnessing it and they talked about it back home. Himmler gave speeches, his most famous one in october 1943 at Posen, where he adressed senior SS-Officers at a conference. Goebbels wrote about it in his diary in 1942. So this notion of Hitler being the only one not being informed is beyond stupid.

I am well aware of his speech, not to mention his earlier ramblings including this.

I agree that he knew, and more to the point that he was responsible even if he by some miracle didn't knew, his word was law after all in Third Reich, and he is responsible for any wrongdoings of his underlings.

I agree that notion of Hitler not knowing is stupid, I do not claim otherwise, merely I am saying that I heard such nonsense being uttered. As for Holocaust it indeed was kind of open secret at least according to modern literature - Sonke Neitzel and Harald Welzer book "Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing and Dying" says about knowledge of mass killings among soldiers.

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25-04-2015, 03:15 PM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2015 03:18 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Holocaust denial
I fail to see a logical reason to have called the thread Holocaust Denial.. especially if your main points of discussion weren't on the topic in exact terms but more about orders and responsibility. Seems a lacking in oversight or in manners or how it comes across. Or it's deliberately seeking attention in a negative light. Idk how a basis of what a line can say of rationalwiki can be someones sound judgement in a social setting. We have still several of these threads form the past still lingering in the skepticisim/conspiracy thread too.

There's the argument often used there and other internet circles that somehow 1 element not being settled correctly, equals holocaust denial and would be justification for grand ramifications in world politics. There's no real social or logical benefit to use that justification.

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25-04-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
I'm puzzled by this threads purpose.
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25-04-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 03:17 PM)pablo Wrote:  I'm puzzled by this threads purpose.

As am I.


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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25-04-2015, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2015 04:32 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 03:15 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I fail to see a logical reason to have called the thread Holocaust Denial.. especially if your main points of discussion weren't on the topic in exact terms but more about orders and responsibility. Seems a lacking in oversight or in manners or how it comes across. Or it's deliberately seeking attention in a negative light. Idk how a basis of what a line can say of rationalwiki can be someones sound judgement in a social setting. We have still several of these threads form the past still lingering in the skepticisim/conspiracy thread too.

There's the argument often used there and other internet circles that somehow 1 element not being settled correctly, equals holocaust denial and would be justification for grand ramifications in world politics. There's no real social or logical benefit to use that justification.
I agree, in retrospect I should have named this thread differently. But then I stood by what I said earlier - if idiotic notion of Hitler protecting the Jews could be considered denial then I think also questions about his involvement could be called that.

I was not seeking attention in negative light as you put it, rather I wanted to know what others have to say about Hitler involvement in light of overwhelming evidence. I wanted to know if absurd notion of Hitler innocence is a result of political agenda or prejudice. Hovewer you certainly are entitled to your opinion about my motives.

Edit: In favor of naming questioning Hitler involvement being form of Holocaust denial. If one question that Hitler in his capacity as chief of state ordered the mass killings, couldn't it mean that said killings were not systematic but rather disorganized acts of extreme violence? One of definitions of Holocaust says about it being the systematic mass slaughter. So following this line of reasoning no order mean lack of systematic killing, which is a part of definition of Shoah. Therefore absurd notion about Hitler innocence could be considered as Holocaust denial.

It's sounds rather flimsy does it not?
(25-04-2015 03:17 PM)pablo Wrote:  I'm puzzled by this threads purpose.

It seems you are not only one. I quote myself - "... rather I wanted to know what others have to say about Hitler involvement in light of overwhelming evidence. I wanted to know if absurd notion of Hitler innocence is a result of political agenda or prejudice."

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25-04-2015, 03:59 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 03:33 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I wanted to know if absurd notion of Hitler innocence is a result of political agenda or prejudice."

Both. Add ignorance and stupidity to the list. The ones spewing the bullshit have an agenda and their followers usually aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.
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25-04-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 03:59 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 03:33 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I wanted to know if absurd notion of Hitler innocence is a result of political agenda or prejudice."

Both. Add ignorance and stupidity to the list. The ones spewing the bullshit have an agenda and their followers usually aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

I agree. There aren't many of them - at least I hope so - but I must say that this kind of view while idiotic seems to have a long tradition - it's not the king who is evil but his courtiers or officials. It should not suprise me that this kind of view still exists.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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25-04-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
Given the methodology of the mass murder, saying it was chaotic is silly. The Einsatzgruppen were the least-organized aspect of the crime. But when you are running trains on a timetable to feed the maws of death, when you are ordering bulk poison and seeking contract bids on crematoria, arguing that the lack of a written order implies the whimsy of an underling is counter factual.
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