Holocaust denial
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25-04-2015, 05:39 PM (This post was last modified: 25-04-2015 05:43 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 05:13 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Given the methodology of the mass murder, saying it was chaotic is silly. The Einsatzgruppen were the least-organized aspect of the crime. But when you are running trains on a timetable to feed the maws of death, when you are ordering bulk poison and seeking contract bids on crematoria, arguing that the lack of a written order implies the whimsy of an underling is counter factual.

Well, I did say that reasoning you probably referring to sound flimsy didn't I? But it is not about what really happened but rather specific line of reasoning. To claim that Hitler didn't know one must have political agenda, be prejudiced or gullible. And if one claims so then he easily can claim that lack of explicit, written order means mass but not systematic killing. Or I am overthinking it by trying to ascribe absurd notion of Hitler lack of knowledge to Holocaust denial?

I'd like to know if you think that notion of Hitler lack of involvement could be somehow classified as Holocaust denial?

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26-04-2015, 10:31 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(25-04-2015 03:24 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 03:17 PM)pablo Wrote:  I'm puzzled by this threads purpose.

As am I.

Me 3. And, the discussion since Mom's post hasn't cleared it up for me.

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26-04-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(26-04-2015 10:31 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(25-04-2015 03:24 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  As am I.

Me 3. And, the discussion since Mom's post hasn't cleared it up for me.

Well, title of thread should be different but what's done is done. As for thread purpose it is as in any other - to discuss. I am aware of scholarly consensus and by no mean I'm trying to claim Hitler innocence. Rather I am interested in knowing opinion of others as to why absurd notion of his lack of knowledge regarding Shoah exists. Is it prejudice, political agenda, lack of knowledge, mixture of these?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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26-04-2015, 05:37 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
You want opinions as to why people, and people not represented in this community, deny historical fact? Is that it?

Forgive me if I'm just completely misreading your intent, but I find the topic - regardless of the title - extremely dubious and question your motivation. The Holocaust is historical fact. Hitler's guilt is historical fact. That there are people who dispute these facts is established and the majority of people who do belong to neo Nazi and other racist and antisemitic groups. And, you want us to discuss our opinions as to why they are this way?

It's because they are assholes.

What else do you want to know?

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27-04-2015, 01:26 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(26-04-2015 05:37 PM)BnW Wrote:  You want opinions as to why people, and people not represented in this community, deny historical fact? Is that it?

Forgive me if I'm just completely misreading your intent, but I find the topic - regardless of the title - extremely dubious and question your motivation. The Holocaust is historical fact. Hitler's guilt is historical fact. That there are people who dispute these facts is established and the majority of people who do belong to neo Nazi and other racist and antisemitic groups. And, you want us to discuss our opinions as to why they are this way?

It's because they are assholes.

What else do you want to know?

Yes, that's it. And it isn't about historical fact as much as this specific fact. One could see that evidence are overwhelming, yet there are people who try to deny it. One of the users compared it to religion, with it's disregard of facts, and while I think that comparision is apt I think there is more to this.

As for my motivation after quite a number of users questioned the purpose of this thread I don't really care. I had no ulterior motive - if you can believe that, that's good if not, that's not so good but everyone is free to have opinion.

And yes I wan't discuss it, cause answer like they're assholes/stupid/ignorant isn't really answer. Holocaust is a fact, Hitler's guilt too. So what makes people to disbelieve these?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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27-04-2015, 02:57 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(27-04-2015 01:26 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Holocaust is a fact, Hitler's guilt too. So what makes people to disbelieve these?

Often it's that they like fascism / nazism. A lot of people bought into those ideas in the 1920s, 30s and 40s. It's highly unlikely that such political ideas would die straight away. The idea of races being unequal, of whites (Aryans) being the master race, anti-Semitism... Hitler was a persuasive guy, he could sell those ideas. Racists and bigots quite like nazism. But nowadays nazism is strictly (and rightly) condemned, and one reason is on the basis of the Holocaust.

So one way to allow someone to publicly espouse nazi ideology is to say "Oh, but the Holocaust didn't really happen. It was a big demonization exercise by the winners of WW2 to justify their actions". And it's easy to assemble some propaganda, to cast doubt on official accounts - people naturally distrust government everywhere... to find some crackpot historian who supports your views...

Like with religion, people will believe their own bullshit. Even if they *know* they espouse that view because of an agenda, they will kind of... feed it back. "I know that the Holocaust is a lie because I have examined the evidence" - but the evidence that they will allow as valid is only that evidence that fits with their preconceptions...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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27-04-2015, 03:22 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(27-04-2015 02:57 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(27-04-2015 01:26 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Holocaust is a fact, Hitler's guilt too. So what makes people to disbelieve these?

Often it's that they like fascism / nazism. A lot of people bought into those ideas in the 1920s, 30s and 40s. It's highly unlikely that such political ideas would die straight away. The idea of races being unequal, of whites (Aryans) being the master race, anti-Semitism... Hitler was a persuasive guy, he could sell those ideas. Racists and bigots quite like nazism. But nowadays nazism is strictly (and rightly) condemned, and one reason is on the basis of the Holocaust.

So one way to allow someone to publicly espouse nazi ideology is to say "Oh, but the Holocaust didn't really happen. It was a big demonization exercise by the winners of WW2 to justify their actions". And it's easy to assemble some propaganda, to cast doubt on official accounts - people naturally distrust government everywhere... to find some crackpot historian who supports your views...

Like with religion, people will believe their own bullshit. Even if they *know* they espouse that view because of an agenda, they will kind of... feed it back. "I know that the Holocaust is a lie because I have examined the evidence" - but the evidence that they will allow as valid is only that evidence that fits with their preconceptions...

This is the answer with which I certainly agree. But it is still something hard to grasp, something I could not quite understand for these ideas are simply horrible and now after true face of regime is well known - not that it bother to hide it even back then - this ideology (or it's variants) should not find any supporters. But as you aptly say - people believe their own bullshit, and one can find "evidence" for whatever feels right to him.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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27-04-2015, 08:05 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(27-04-2015 01:26 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  And yes I wan't discuss it, cause answer like they're assholes/stupid/ignorant isn't really answer. Holocaust is a fact, Hitler's guilt too. So what makes people to disbelieve these?

Ok. Whatever floats your boat. Carry on.

If you need me, I plan on starting a thread on why some people (including me) don't like and won't eat tomatoes despite knowing they are good for you.

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27-04-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(27-04-2015 08:05 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(27-04-2015 01:26 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  And yes I wan't discuss it, cause answer like they're assholes/stupid/ignorant isn't really answer. Holocaust is a fact, Hitler's guilt too. So what makes people to disbelieve these?

Ok. Whatever floats your boat. Carry on.

If you need me, I plan on starting a thread on why some people (including me) don't like and won't eat tomatoes despite knowing they are good for you.

Whatever. I am not interested but it seems everyone is interested in something else. Hovewer I do appreciate that you feel like informing me.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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27-04-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
I'm not trying to be a dick, but a topic to discuss why a minority of people would have a contrary opinion on a specific historical fact is bizarre and raises questions about where you are heading with this. Out ability to answer this is equal to our ability to determine why some people don't like tomatoes. You can't really get into someone's head like that.

The whole thing just struck me as very odd. But, don't let me stop you.

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