Holocaust denial
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28-04-2015, 04:56 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(28-04-2015 01:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hitler's anti-Semitism wasn't in a vacuum AFAIK from what little I've read. The culture in a lot of Western countries including USA and UK was that Jews were nasty and not to be trusted. My thought is that Hitler's ideas were able to gain traction because he didn't have to convince people to hate Jews much, he just had to give it some kind of bullshit justification why everything was the Jews' fault and therefore they should be made to pay, e.g. by having their goods confiscated.

Then appeal to superiority complex by telling people that they are naturally better than that guy over there, even if that guy over there (e.g. Einstein) was manifestly more talented and successful than them, that makes people feel good. And to prevent the cognitive dissonance that the guy they have been told to hate is clearly just another regular guy like themselves, it's nice to send the aforementioned guy off somewhere else where they can't see him...

It's very nice easy basic politics. And it's being repeated elsewhere. E.g. in South Africa we have several populist politicians who've been telling the poorer classes that "Hey, by the way, the reason you're poor is 'cos of the foreigners, the amaKwereKwere..." It's the low road, the path of evil... but it doesn't stop people from taking it.

Of course, one could even say that anti-Semitism was common. Again I use Kershaw's biograpy - in his opinion Hitler anti-Semitism may have been unnoticeable in Vienna cause this city was generally anti-Semitic. And as to your explanation - exactly. Also one should not discount that he made people believe that Jews and Bolsheviks were more or less the same. Jews were perfect scape goat (mora about that can be found in "Understanding Genocide
The Social Psychology of the Holocaust"), they were visible yet not numerous enough to do something about discrimination if things were begin to look bad.

As for superiority complex it is not untrue but Hitler rhetorics was more about unity and overturning the The Treaty of Versailles. Obviously anti-Semitism played a role but rhetoric was I think more about regaining national pride and might. One could say it like that - hatred of Jews was very important but to Hitler rather than his followers, one could have been nazi supporter without hating Jews, or maybe one could start as such but then brainwashing could take it's toll.

As for politics I think you could be right but then I'm not much interested in modern politics.

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28-04-2015, 05:40 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
One nice thing about Holocaust Deniers ---

It makes it easy to figure out who's the idiot in the room as soon as they start talking....

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28-04-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(28-04-2015 01:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hitler's anti-Semitism wasn't in a vacuum AFAIK from what little I've read. The culture in a lot of Western countries including USA and UK was that Jews were nasty and not to be trusted. My thought is that Hitler's ideas were able to gain traction because he didn't have to convince people to hate Jews much, he just had to give it some kind of bullshit justification why everything was the Jews' fault and therefore they should be made to pay, e.g. by having their goods confiscated.

Also to be considered is the long history of anti-Semitism in Europe, and Germany in particular going back to Luther, who in his bigotry suggested the seizure of Jewish property and their expulsion from Germany (such as it was at the time). In that he eerily foreshadowed Hitler.

Luther's views on the matter were both absorbed from and influential on the European outlook towards Jews. I view Hitler and Naziism as the (il)logical extension of a historical anti-Semitism.
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28-04-2015, 11:09 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(28-04-2015 05:40 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  One nice thing about Holocaust Deniers ---

It makes it easy to figure out who's the idiot in the room as soon as they start talking....

It's been my experience that most people who deny the holocaust just aren't that thoughtful about it. It's not just this group either this can be applied to. Just about every other conspiracy type group that has ever existed has a similar cognitive dissonance. where they suspend fact and go with what sounds better to them because it lines up better with their overall world view in general.

In other words....

They are often taught it from peers or their family. They don't fact check they just assume because it fits with what they already think. Someone else draws conclusions for them and they think, "well that makes sense."

In many ways it's a lot like religious belief.


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And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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28-04-2015, 11:42 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(28-04-2015 01:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's very nice easy basic politics. And it's being repeated elsewhere. E.g. in South Africa we have several populist politicians who've been telling the poorer classes that "Hey, by the way, the reason you're poor is 'cos of the foreigners, the amaKwereKwere..." It's the low road, the path of evil... but it doesn't stop people from taking it.

Yeah, it's classic scapegoating. In Vienna at the turn of the century Karl Lueger was mayor. He was the founder of the christian social party and was known for his antisemitism. One of the reasons emperor Franz Josef refused to appoint him two or three times after Lueger had won the elections. By all accounts, Hitler was a big admirer of Lueger and of some pretty obscure figures like Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels, a self appointed knight, founder of the Order of the new templars, which boiled down to being a mysoginist male debating club. He also was editor and only writer of the "Ostara", a magazine which rambled a lot about arians and the opposing ape races. Some of the later sexual innuendos of the Nazi antisemitism have their origins in that kind of stuff.
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28-04-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(28-04-2015 10:34 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Luther's views on the matter were both absorbed from and influential on the European outlook towards Jews. I view Hitler and Naziism as the (il)logical extension of a historical anti-Semitism.

He's the logical extension of christian antisemitism which ingrained itself deeply in the population at large. But these views weren't confined to Germany. In most countries antisemitism was rampant. Just think of the Dreyfuss affaire in France at the end of the 19th century.
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28-04-2015, 08:04 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
The biggest problem with Holocaust denial is the idea that the thousands of survivors could all be such good liars and that none of them have spilled the beans yet. Watergate involved what, a dozen people? People by nature such at conspiracies because someone always can't keep their mouth shut. I have a Greek Cypriot teacher who claims that some of the alleged massacres of Turks were actually carried out by MIT, and now some the MIT guys are dying and have come out to clear their conscience. The idea that thousands of people could all be in on such a plot and that none of them would ever come out defies imagination.

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28-04-2015, 08:12 PM
RE: Holocaust denial
(28-04-2015 11:09 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 05:40 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  One nice thing about Holocaust Deniers ---

It makes it easy to figure out who's the idiot in the room as soon as they start talking....

It's been my experience that most people who deny the holocaust just aren't that thoughtful about it. It's not just this group either this can be applied to. Just about every other conspiracy type group that has ever existed has a similar cognitive dissonance. where they suspend fact and go with what sounds better to them because it lines up better with their overall world view in general.

In other words....

They are often taught it from peers or their family. They don't fact check they just assume because it fits with what they already think. Someone else draws conclusions for them and they think, "well that makes sense."

In many ways it's a lot like religious belief.

Sure.... All true....

But -- just because stupid people learn stupidity from other stupid people, doesn't alleviate their stupidity.....

They're still stupid......

And again -- it's a lot like religious belief....

Just without a sermon or a choir.


Big Grin

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29-04-2015, 02:24 AM
RE: Holocaust denial
(28-04-2015 10:34 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(28-04-2015 01:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hitler's anti-Semitism wasn't in a vacuum AFAIK from what little I've read. The culture in a lot of Western countries including USA and UK was that Jews were nasty and not to be trusted. My thought is that Hitler's ideas were able to gain traction because he didn't have to convince people to hate Jews much, he just had to give it some kind of bullshit justification why everything was the Jews' fault and therefore they should be made to pay, e.g. by having their goods confiscated.

Also to be considered is the long history of anti-Semitism in Europe, and Germany in particular going back to Luther, who in his bigotry suggested the seizure of Jewish property and their expulsion from Germany (such as it was at the time). In that he eerily foreshadowed Hitler.

Luther's views on the matter were both absorbed from and influential on the European outlook towards Jews. I view Hitler and Naziism as the (il)logical extension of a historical anti-Semitism.

Rather than illogical I would say that it was logic taken to it's extreme point, tied with long history of anti-Semitism in Europe. Zygmunt Bauman for example consider Holocaust not as just as regression to barbarism, rather he connect it with modern division of labour and tendency to view rule following as good, which both were important part of the Shoah.

In short he thinks that Shoah was ideas of purity and progress taken to their logical extreme.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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