Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-08-2011, 04:33 PM
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(29-08-2011 03:53 PM)joeontheland Wrote:  
(29-08-2011 03:08 PM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  
(29-08-2011 02:54 PM)joeontheland Wrote:  Any 911 sceptics here, or anyone still on the fence?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G43zl4fzD...r_embedded

What does this have to do with fluoride in our drinking water?

who are you the forum police?

Yes I am, assume the position!

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-08-2011, 11:20 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2011 12:03 AM by Glaucus.)
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
You came to an atheist website, and your first post in an emphatic response to a 4 month old topic regarding fluoride? I'll bite.

First, you ask me to be objective when you give a link to an organization with a clear agenda. And please, don't mistake avoidance with just being tired of hearing about it. It's similar to the Global Warming arguments that I get caught in, it's even gotten so bad the department strongly urges students to talk about environmental engineering in terms of dollars saved instead of emissions reduction.

Secondly, the conclusion for several of the journals read as follows:

Quote:the effect of fluoride poisoning on intellectual ability is negligible

Quote:..Negative correlation between urine fluoride and intelligence

Quote:Children’s intelligence and growth can be affected by high concentrations of As or fluoride.

As is Arsenic, a highly poisonous chemical.

Some of the titles of the studies were less supportive of your argument:
Quote:A preliminary investigation of the IQs of 7-13 year old children from an area with coal burning-related fluoride poisoning.

Quote:The effects of endemic fluoride poisoning caused by coal burning on the physical development and intelligence of children.

Quote:Decreased intelligence in children and exposure to fluoride and arsenic in drinking water.

Quote:Blood lead of children in Wamiao-Xinhuai intelligence study.

Quote:Effect of high level of fluoride and arsenium on children’s intelligence.

I grabbed one of the papers and perused through it (Titled: A STUDY OF THE IQ LEVELS OF FOUR- TO SEVEN-YEAR-OLD CHILDREN IN HIGH FLUORIDE AREAS). While the report does suggest that high concentrations of fluoride MAY be the cause, they do not discern where the fluoride is coming from. The only thing I could find is a statement saying the samples were taken from a well. Well water, by it's definition, is connected straight into the water supply. And because the region they tested in appears to be in rural China, I doubt that the well is treated (The tests I looked through were all from regions notorious for having environmental health issues, and filtering out the excess variables is difficult).

Here is an excerpt from the conclusion of the document:

Quote:But Yunsun Hu’s report suggests that the relationship between high fluoride exposure and variations in the IQs in the case of school-age children is not significant. Since the factors that influence the IQ scores of children are difficult to unravel, particularly the major role that environment, education, and other acquired factors might play, we have chosen preschool-age children as the subjects of our study in hopes that we may lessen the interference from these kinds of factors and express the relationship between high fluoride and child IQ as objectively as possible.

And the quote at the bottom of the webpage you linked:

Quote:... In humans, only five substances have so far been documented as developmental neurotoxicants: lead, methylmercury, polychlorinated biphenyls, arsenic, and toluene. From this evidence, including our own studies on some of these substances, parallels may be drawn that suggest that fluoride could well belong to the same class of toxicants, but uncertainties remain. At least 200 industrial chemicals are known to cause brain toxicity in humans, mainly adults, and they must also be suspected to harm the developing brain. Because of the individual and societal importance of optimal brain function, recognition of developmental neurotoxicity is a public health priority, and further evidence on fluoride is needed.

Scientists are very careful about what words they use, because they have to convey the right meaning. Otherwise, things could get misunderstood by the general public. So look carefully into the websites that you support, because some of the "facts" that they have may not be referencing the topic at hand.

One important thing that you learn very quickly as and Environmental Engineer, the dose makes the poison.

The rest of you argument is not backed by evidence, and again is simply there to get an emotional response (unless you have evidence that there is a suppression of the cancer cure, or that fluoride was used to make POW's more controllable.)

I'm not interested in the vaccinations debate, because that's not my specialty. I'm an engineer, not a doctor.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2011, 02:06 AM
 
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
So we are essentially arguing whether a substance unknown to the human body for millions of years should be added to peoples water supply giving people inconsistent dosages based on there body weight and the amount of water they drink. Did you known that fhe fluoride used in toothpaste, mouth rinses and dental gels is usually sodium fluoride, a waste product from the aluminium industry and fluoride added to the water supply is hydrofluorosilic acid or sometimes silicofluoride waste products of fertiliser and glass industries?

We seem to be aiming for a safe dosage between unarguable toxicity (agreed?) and an amount that is only beneficial to teeth and has no detrimental effect on any other organ. But is there a safe enough gap between these parts per million to justify adding it to the water supply in such an arbitrary means knowing that some people drink more water than others and some people weigh considerably less or more than the average, where are the warnings telling us how much daily water is safe, we see a warning on toothpaste telling us to call poison control if a certain amount is ingested.

Personally I don't believe that there is a big enough gap between a safe amount and a toxic amount, and even if there is no visible effect on the person immediately that doesn't mean it isn't accumulating around the bone joints and other areas silently causing harm. Hence the dosage is not the be all and end all of the matter, prove that there is a safe dose and that's fine. But are we not forgetting that a low-level chronic dose over years could have a similar effect on the body, fluoride certainly accumulates around certain areas of the body such as the pineal gland and bone joints, it's not like eating chocolate.

Also further recent research on the mechanism of action of fluoride in reducing the prevalence of dental caries (tooth decay) in humans shows that fluoride acts topically (at the surface of the teeth) and that there is negligible benefit in actually ingesting it.

Now in regards to cancer, there are a few really good documentaries about this with many personal accounts, the most famous being Dr Gerson and Rick Simpson.

There are many 'cures' for cancer, being an evolutionist, or I assume you are, this should make sense completely, I find the belief in evolution, cancer, and the inability to cure it or see where the problem lies, very incompatible. Unless that is, mutation has hit the roof and we now see a huge number of mutants with the same gene causing cancer?

These 2 documentaries are very good and I recommend anyone to watch especially the Beautiful truth, they are both about cancer and how to cure yourself and others

The Beautiful Truth

and

Run From The Cure
Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2011, 03:51 AM
 
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
Another point I would make is that these people don't give a shit about you or your families health, the pharmaceutical companies are MASSIVELY profitable and they have no intention of curing people, they are making too much money selling drugs which mask the symptoms, I haven't got the time to be proving this to you and I don't really care if you dismiss it, I am just explaining my stance here, and why I think the way I do.

I find the need to have 'scientific' proof for everything rather dangerous, its dangerous because sometimes these studies are funded by people with interests in the studies falling one way or the other, so what do you do faced with such a problem? You look at evolution, you look at what we have ingested for millions of years, and you mimic.

Also I will come back to mercury, many studies say mercury is safe, however thousands of personal stories online point otherwise, all with similar symptoms, many of them cured after having amalgams removed.

So to be quite frank, current 'science' is a sham.

Another point is that many of the directors of these companies, and other highly powerful companies go between government paid jobs where they regulate these very companies and visa-versa. ITS CORRUPT TO THE EYEBALLS in other words, it is driven by profit, and what I believe, power.

Also history is full of people who mysteriously died after speaking up about certain things, Aaron Russo being one of them, he was a close friend of Nick Rockefella up until he found out what there agenda was.

here is an interview with him, he died shortly after.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...0426590918
Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2011, 05:56 AM
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(30-08-2011 03:51 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  I find the need to have 'scientific' proof for everything rather dangerous, its dangerous because sometimes these studies are funded by people with interests in the studies falling one way or the other, so what do you do faced with such a problem?

You do understand the scientific method right? peer review, replication of results, ring any bells?
Besides that, its difficult to make a study lean one way or the other without either showing a clear bias or controlling the data, both of which can easily be spotted by experts, AND HAVE.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2011, 08:48 AM
 
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(30-08-2011 05:56 AM)UnderTheMicroscope Wrote:  
(30-08-2011 03:51 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  I find the need to have 'scientific' proof for everything rather dangerous, its dangerous because sometimes these studies are funded by people with interests in the studies falling one way or the other, so what do you do faced with such a problem?

You do understand the scientific method right? peer review, replication of results, ring any bells?
Besides that, its difficult to make a study lean one way or the other without either showing a clear bias or controlling the data, both of which can easily be spotted by experts, AND HAVE.

Ok, so how is it that mercury is still being placed into peoples mouths?

Ask you dentist he will say there is no evidence showing that mercury in amalgams causes illness.






I mean, how did that one get past the radar?
Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2011, 09:53 AM
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(30-08-2011 02:06 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  Personally I don't believe that there is a big enough gap between a safe amount and a toxic amount, and even if there is no visible effect on the person immediately that doesn't mean it isn't accumulating around the bone joints and other areas silently causing harm.

You are entitled to that belief, but sadly, that's how the world works. The regulations on anything (water quality, fluoride dose, etc) are all based on the idea of meeting a balance between economically responsible, and healthy values. That's why we put a lot of wiggle room between regulated dosage and lethal levels, because the wiggle room also allows the individual to influence their own fluoride dosage, because the drinking water level is a baseline.

The dosage is all that should matter. I'm not talking the one time dosage, I'm talking about the lifetime dosage. But currently, no conclusive evidence has come forward that fluoride is dangerous to human health. As you pointed out, there are studies that suggest that it could be the cause of some problems, but there are issues with those studies because they haven't isolated fluoride as the contaminant of concern.

As for the cancer, don't get me wrong, I do think that there is a cure for cancer. I just doubt that it has been found yet. If my poor understanding of medicine is correct, cancer is when cells fail to replicate properly, which happens as the body gets older. So it seems to me that cancer is (generally) the disease of old age.

I have never heard anyone claim that mercury is good for the body. It's one of the most controlled chemicals because it is so dangerous. That's why we regulate it like crazy, because it's a short journey back to our food.

(30-08-2011 03:51 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  Another point I would make is that these people don't give a shit about you or your families health, the pharmaceutical companies are MASSIVELY profitable and they have no intention of curing people, they are making too much money selling drugs which mask the symptoms, I haven't got the time to be proving this to you and I don't really care if you dismiss it, I am just explaining my stance here, and why I think the way I do....

...Another point is that many of the directors of these companies, and other highly powerful companies go between government paid jobs where they regulate these very companies and visa-versa. ITS CORRUPT TO THE EYEBALLS in other words, it is driven by profit, and what I believe, power.

Also history is full of people who mysteriously died after speaking up about certain things, Aaron Russo being one of them, he was a close friend of Nick Rockefella up until he found out what there agenda was.

This entire excerpt shows exactly what crackpot conspiracy ideas rely upon, the belief that people are innately evil and that any form of authority is filled with evil people. I'll admit that some people truly are evil, but the human species as a whole is not.

I don't mean to sound rude, but you (and people like you) are commonly misrepresenting data, and fishing for emotional responses rather than logical ones, in order to push your own fears about humanity onto the rest of us. What it boils down to is that you are preying on people who have a poor understanding of science and find it easier to believe that some fat-cat is evil, than to believe that people are trying to help each other out.

Though I would like to assure you, that if it was proven within a reasonable doubt that fluoride was dangerous, it would quickly be pulled from the drinking supply. Engineers very quickly lose their licenses for knowingly endangering the public. I drink fluoridated water, my friends in the field who put fluoride in the water drink it, they have their children drink it. This is because we've been shown the data regarding water fluoridation, and we understand that it is currently doing good for people. Especially the lower class who can't afford regular dental check ups, it gives them some baseline dental support.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Glaucus's post
30-08-2011, 10:38 AM
 
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
Entitled to a belief, thats how the world works... LOL


Are you kidding me??

It astounds me how so many people are so closed minded, I have just presented you with information which could cure anyone you know who happens to get cancer and you have just walked away without even looking at it. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE??


The fact is that organic fruit and veg destroys cancer cells and so does THC the active ingredient in cannabis.


Maybe you should try watch this, I will post again to see if anyone actually bothers.


Hollywood director Russo goes in-depth for first time on the astounding admissions of Nick Rockefeller, including his prediction of 9/11 and the war on terror hoax, the Rockefeller's creation of women's lib, and the elite's ultimate plan for world population reduction and a microchipped society Aaron Russo joins Alex Jones for a fascinating sit-down in depth video interview on a plethora of important subjects. Aaron begins by describing how the draconian and mafia tactics of Chicago police woke him up to the fact that America wasn't free after his nightclub was routinely raided and he was forced to pay protection money. Aaron and Alex then cover a broad range of topics including the private run for profit federal reserve, Aaron's experience in the late 80's with the IRS when they retroactively passed laws to punish silver and gold traders, the real meaning of the word "democracy," what really happened on 9/11 and Aaron's relationship with Nick Rockefeller, who personally tried to recruit him on behalf of the CFR. Aaron also relates how Rockefeller told him that the elite created women's liberation to destroy the family and how they want to ultimately microchip and control the entire population. Rockefeller also told before 9/11 Russo that an unexpected "event" would catalyze the U.S. to invade Afghanistan and Iraq

VIDEO
Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2011, 11:09 AM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2011 11:17 AM by Glaucus.)
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(30-08-2011 10:38 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  Entitled to a belief, thats how the world works... LOL
Are you kidding me??

I'm not sure you understood what I meant by "that's how the world works." We cannot get any contaminant level down to zero, so there is always a balance between toxic and healthy.

Before you accuse me of being closed minded, let me explain why I didn't address the cancer videos.
1) No one in my family is currently suffering from cancer, so it is irrelevant to me at this time.

2) I'm sorry, but I'll take medical advice from medical journals, and doctors, rather than a documentary. You'll need more scientific evidence if you want me to worship you as the messiah who saved humanity from cancer.

3) This topic is about water fluoridation. You are either changing the subject because you are aware that your position is weak and easily dismantled by people educated in the field, or because you don't wish to acknowledge that your position failed. I think it's the former because you haven't given a rebuttal against any of the positions that I took against your argument, you just keep moving the goal posts.

4) The fall semester just started up again, so I'm a little busy and I don't have the time to watch a few hours of documentaries for the sake of a debate. Especially on a topic that I'm not familiar with.

I'm not at college to be a doctor, I'm here to become an engineer. My field tries to make sure that cancer causing chemicals don't get to the population, but if the population develops cancer, it falls into the medical field and out of my jurisdiction and understanding. So I'm skeptical of people telling me about miracle cures on subjects that I'm not familiar with, so please provide evidence for your claims. And personal stories and documentaries are not good forms of evidence, they're a nice way to get an agenda across, or to make people aware of a problem. You must be careful when watching a documentary, and be aware of what views the people making the film want to get across, because they will commonly resort to getting an emotional response from the public when their science is too weak and can't win the argument for them.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-08-2011, 11:35 AM
 
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(30-08-2011 11:09 AM)Glaucus Wrote:  1) No one in my family is currently suffering from cancer, so it is irrelevant to me at this time.

How selfish of you...


Quote:2) I'm sorry, but I'll take medical advice from medical journals, and doctors, rather than a documentary. You'll need more scientific evidence if you want me to worship you as the messiah who saved humanity from cancer.

Dr Gerson is a doctor, his therapy cures people of late stages of cancer... Rick Simpson is not a doctor, he was also curing people of late stages of cancer using hemp oil..

Quote:3) This topic is about water fluoridation. You are either changing the subject because you are aware that your position is weak and easily dismantled by people educated in the field, or because you don't wish to acknowledge that your position failed. I think it's the former because you haven't given a rebuttal against any of the positions that I took against your argument, you just keep moving the goal posts.

Actually it's none of these, the reason I am talking about many different subjects is because they are all evidential of something larger. They are like evidence on a crime scene, you may need several totally independent things in order to get close to the truth.

Quote:4) The fall semester just started up again, so I'm a little busy and I don't have the time to watch a few hours of documentaries for the sake of a debate. Especially on a topic that I'm not familiar with.

Stop handing your power to so called 'experts'.

Anecdotal evidence, judged correctly, is paramount. Saying we need scientific evidence in this context is madness.

When did people getting cured not become proof in itself?

Quote:So I'm skeptical of people telling me about miracle cures on subjects that I'm not familiar with, so please provide evidence for your claims.

Not miracle, its called nature, how an atheist can miss this is beyond me.
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: