Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
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31-08-2011, 09:45 AM
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
Two points:

1) I have not looked at any website, nor posted a website in an attempt to disprove you, so I have no website to call "Gospel". All I've done is look through the website that you gave me, and critiqued it. I tried to point out where your argument is flawed, because that's how a debate should go. It should just be people yelling at each other, you need to stop and listen, AND understand where the opposing view is coming from.

2) I think you misunderstood me again, when I said that I was tired of hearing about Global Warming and my department told us to talk in economic terms, I meant I was tired of hearing people deny global warming. I fully believe that man-made climate change is real, but you can't argue with some people by using the proof of it. The best option, especially if you don't want to get bogged down in a debate that moves as quickly as trench warfare, is to simply explain the economic benefits of changing their habits.

All I'm asking is for you to stop trying to overwhelm an argument with clutter, and deal with one issue at a time. But you haven't done that, you've moved on to topics that are more and more heated. Water fluoridation can be a real debate, because there are a few studies that suggest there could be a problem, but they aren't conclusive.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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31-08-2011, 10:41 AM
 
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
There is no debate.

I believe we live in an oligarchic world.

You believe that enough people peer reviewing things is tight proof.

I've had these type of debates on physics forums regarding 911, yet here we are now with an ex-CIA whistle blower proving it was an inside job.

Global warming is one big gravy train, don't underestimate peoples lack of courage to speak against the system when they depend on that very system for their wages.

Man made CO2 is less than 0.7% of the total omitted from the surface of the earth.

There is no where for this debate to go, like I said, we are fundamentally coming from different vantage points.
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31-08-2011, 03:05 PM
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
There is one point that I've been trying to get across for the last few posts, focus on one issue at a time!

Individually, 9/11, Fluoridation, cancer cure suppression, and global warming, are huge arguments by themselves. We can (and people do) devote hours upon hours to each issue individually. But to claim that they are all tied together into one massive plot by some oligarchy, that is a claim so large that you need massive amounts of evidence to support them. And one guy saying it was an inside job is not enough, that's why you need multiple, INDIVIDUAL sources in order to prove something. Because it's easy for one person to fake data, but if someone else (preferably multiple someone else's) can individually support that a claim, then you have ground to stand upon.

So please read and understand this carefully:
It's easier to handle one topic at a time, and it will avoid causing confusions and misinterpretations. So all I want is to handle one topic, and because this topic was originally about fluoridation, lets start there. If you want to talk about the other issues, then please start a topic for each idea (preferably in the Skepticism, Pseudoscience, and Conspiracy Theories section of the forum). I'll gladly talk about those topics in their respective sections (or at least the ones that I'm familiar with), but leave this section for your claims about fluoridation being wrong. You can tie them all together into one big model if you can first prove that your claims about them individually are true.

You are a passionate person about many things, but you have difficulty conveying your argument in a rational sense. Most of us here are atheists, we abandoned our former belief in a deity because what little evidence was offered didn't stand up to further inspection. That is the same way with the website that you posted originally, you gave me evidence and it did not hold up to further inspection.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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31-08-2011, 04:18 PM
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(31-08-2011 10:41 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  There is no where for this debate to go, like I said, we are fundamentally coming from different vantage points.

Giving up that easily will not help your cause. Make me believe you, give me multiple sources of evidence. I don't know if you're understanding that I will gladly change sides if you can prove to me that your side is correct (or at least beyond a reasonable doubt). If it is an important issue that is threatening the lives of people, then it's worth talking out. Don't hide behind comments like that in an attempt to save face. If you're wrong, accept it. But if you're right, then show it!

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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31-08-2011, 05:20 PM
 
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(31-08-2011 04:18 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  
(31-08-2011 10:41 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  There is no where for this debate to go, like I said, we are fundamentally coming from different vantage points.

Giving up that easily will not help your cause. Make me believe you, give me multiple sources of evidence. I don't know if you're understanding that I will gladly change sides if you can prove to me that your side is correct (or at least beyond a reasonable doubt). If it is an important issue that is threatening the lives of people, then it's worth talking out. Don't hide behind comments like that in an attempt to save face. If you're wrong, accept it. But if you're right, then show it!

Ok guys, that's cool, I will post some more stuff about fluoride tomorrow what we can look at.
(31-08-2011 05:20 PM)joeontheland Wrote:  
(31-08-2011 04:18 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  
(31-08-2011 10:41 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  There is no where for this debate to go, like I said, we are fundamentally coming from different vantage points.

Giving up that easily will not help your cause. Make me believe you, give me multiple sources of evidence. I don't know if you're understanding that I will gladly change sides if you can prove to me that your side is correct (or at least beyond a reasonable doubt). If it is an important issue that is threatening the lives of people, then it's worth talking out. Don't hide behind comments like that in an attempt to save face. If you're wrong, accept it. But if you're right, then show it!

Ok guys, that's cool, I will post some more stuff about fluoride tomorrow what we can look at.

Maybe looking at whether or not fluoride builds up on the pineal gland would be an interesting start. I will find more on this, hopefully some studies

(31-08-2011 05:20 PM)joeontheland Wrote:  
(31-08-2011 04:18 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  
(31-08-2011 10:41 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  There is no where for this debate to go, like I said, we are fundamentally coming from different vantage points.

Giving up that easily will not help your cause. Make me believe you, give me multiple sources of evidence. I don't know if you're understanding that I will gladly change sides if you can prove to me that your side is correct (or at least beyond a reasonable doubt). If it is an important issue that is threatening the lives of people, then it's worth talking out. Don't hide behind comments like that in an attempt to save face. If you're wrong, accept it. But if you're right, then show it!

Ok guys, that's cool, I will post some more stuff about fluoride tomorrow what we can look at.
(31-08-2011 05:20 PM)joeontheland Wrote:  
(31-08-2011 04:18 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  
(31-08-2011 10:41 AM)joeontheland Wrote:  There is no where for this debate to go, like I said, we are fundamentally coming from different vantage points.

Giving up that easily will not help your cause. Make me believe you, give me multiple sources of evidence. I don't know if you're understanding that I will gladly change sides if you can prove to me that your side is correct (or at least beyond a reasonable doubt). If it is an important issue that is threatening the lives of people, then it's worth talking out. Don't hide behind comments like that in an attempt to save face. If you're wrong, accept it. But if you're right, then show it!

Ok guys, that's cool, I will post some more stuff about fluoride tomorrow what we can look at.

Maybe looking at whether or not fluoride builds up on the pineal gland would be an interesting start. I will find more on this, hopefully some studies

This book looks interesting

http://www.amazon.com/Fluoride-Deception...087&sr=8-1

here is an online copy

http://sandiego.indymedia.org/media/2007/02/125024.pdf

I will be reading this tomorrow, some interesting points about the Manhattan project aswell!
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31-08-2011, 06:00 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2011 06:32 PM by Glaucus.)
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
I look forward to hearing about it. Though, I won't be able to read the book, I'm currently working my way through my 3rd year of college, and the engineering classes are relentless in piling up work. So you'll have to summarize some of the key points, and I would recommend looking further into the claims made by the book and see if you can find some independent sources that confirm the claims. This book is clearly favoring one side, but that bias could be true if independent sources (preferably sources with no obvious slant) can confirm it.

It's like reading "god is not Great," the author clearly favors one side, so it's important to check to see if the claims made regarding religion are true.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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31-08-2011, 08:06 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2011 08:35 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
I think drinking water should be fortified with low dose lithium instead of fluoride. In areas where lithium is natually in the water supply the people are generally more healthy. Less mental heath problems, etc. There are a few studies that confirmed this.

I'm talking about low dose lithium, not the doses they give to people with schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder since those dosages have negative side-effects.

I have a bag of 99.99% pure lithium carbonate here (you need a prescription to get it as a drug so and it's far more expensive that way). It's dirt cheap if it's bought as a chemical and I take ~50mg/day. Lithium orotate (supplement) is harsh on the kidneys but the carbonate form is very friendly in low doses.

I know someone that has access to lab equipment like this so I know my lithium carbonate is safe and doesn't have any problematic contaminants. Below detection limits or insignificant amounts of any heavy metals.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...2399001651
Quote:Recent advances in cellular and molecular biology have resulted in the identification of two novel, hitherto completely unexpected targets of lithium’s actions, discoveries that may have a major impact on the future use of this unique cation in biology and medicine. Chronic lithium treatment has been demonstrated to markedly increase the levels of the major neuroprotective protein, bcl-2 in rat frontal cortex, hippocampus, and striatum. Similar lithium-induced increases in bcl-2 are also observed in cells of human neuronal origin, and are observed in rat frontal cortex at lithium levels as low as 0.3 mmol/L. Bcl-2 is widely regarded as a major neuroprotective protein, and genetic strategies that increase bcl-2 levels have demonstrated not only robust protection of neurons against diverse insults, but have also demonstrated an increase the regeneration of mammalian CNS axons.

http://www.psycheducation.org/depression...ithium.htm

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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31-08-2011, 08:54 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2011 09:20 PM by Glaucus.)
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
Interesting, I had never heard anyone suggest putting lithium in the water.

Though, I think you'll have a harder time convincing people to put lithium in the water. Fluoride is questionable on the grounds of being "forced medication," though it doesn't deal with anything that regularly becomes life-threatening, just something that everyone must deal with. There's a surprising amount of data regarding the socio-economic value of having good teeth.

It seems like, if I'm understanding the article, lithium effects the brain, which is a no-no for engineers or the government to touch without consent. If it has to be prescribed by the doctor then there is very little chance of it every being put in the public water supply, no matter how much benefit it may prove to have.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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31-08-2011, 09:33 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2011 09:36 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
(31-08-2011 08:54 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  Interesting, I had never heard anyone suggest putting lithium in the water.

Though, I think you'll have a harder time convincing people to put lithium in the water. Fluoride is questionable on the grounds of being "forced medication," though it doesn't deal with anything that regularly becomes life-threatening, just something that everyone must deal with. There's a surprising amount of data regarding the socio-economic value of having good teeth. T

It seems like, if I'm understanding the article, lithium effects the brain, which is a no-no for engineers or the government to touch without consent. If it has to be prescribed by the doctor then there is very little chance of it every being put in the public water supply, no matter how much benefit it may prove to have.

Funny isn't it. The general public make their decisions based on misinformation and ignorance. It's part of what makes me think our species is doomed!

The government fortifies plain white flour with vitamins. Theoretically adding lithium to drinking water would be equivalent to that. I agree with you that it wont happen. Imagine the bullshit in the media like "Mind Altering substances in water" "the government wants to brainwash the public with mood altering substances". There would be a bunch of new conspiracy theories.

Still I'm thinking mental heath problems have a greater impact on our society than having better teeth. How much impact do mental health problems have on society? Apparently supplementing with Lithium would reduce or delay many neuro-degenerative conditions like Alzheimer's Disease. In areas that naturally have lithium in the water there are less violent crimes. I'm wishing there was a way to change things for the better.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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31-08-2011, 09:34 PM
RE: Holy shit they put fluoride in the water.
Joeontheland,

Here is a link to a British Dental Journal article, that was published in Nature (one of the scientific magazines that I try to follow), that discusses the history and give a very basic understanding of the current situation in water fluoridation.

History of Water Fluoridation

This is a good summary of the position that you're arguing against, and it's talking about England Smile

And welcome to the forum Dhign!

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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