Homeless people.
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09-05-2013, 09:52 PM
RE: Homeless people.
Quote:You shouldn't feel empathic toward homeless people; they're all the same Undecided! Personally, I feel no empathy for people from, say, New Zealand, who have to deal with homeless people all day; all New Zealander's are the same. Coffeedrinker

Apples and oranges.
I hate them because of their actions, not because of their situation.

aka, you hate me right now because I hate them, not because I'm a Kiwi.

Quote:As for the rest, you're asking people to do something they aren't capable of doing. As with a man whose legs are permanently disfigured, it doesn't matter how many times you offer to train him as an olympic athlete... he simply cannot do it.

These people do have the ability to get a home, get a job etc..
How hard is it to collect trolley's for example?
Hell, how hard is it to live on the unemployment?? That's my biggest problem, you can literally survive off the unemployment benefit... That's what it's for.
You can be a total idiot and the welfare people will sort out everything for you.

This is the whole reason I have a problem with them, they do have the means, no they're not incapable because they can be complete idiots and still survive off the unemployment and never work a day in their life.
I don't mind supporting people via taxes that are incapable of working, I just don't want those same people then on the streets driving me crazy. There is ZERO reason for them to be on the streets other then to purposely fuck with me.

If the state wasn't providing for them I would have empathy for them, but it does, so I don't.

It'll be interesting to ride down the streets at night in the middle of winter and see how many suddenly have homes to go too...

Quote:I think there's a whole lotta confusion between "homeless" and "mentally ill" happening here.

Muffs, you hate the guy that begs you for money then screams at you because he begs you for money then screams at you. He sounds like a certifiable nut. If he is, in fact mentally ill, then he deserves your pity, in the least, and more reasonably, your assistance. But you don't hate him because he's homeless.

I don't suspect you would have hated me when I was homeless, nor would you have even known I was at a glance.

You always get it. It's not that he's homeless (though that's yet to be seen if he truly is), it's that he's being annoying.

Quote:I can't say much more than what you're saying is ignorant (and I'm not trying to dismiss you as a person, I mean it is lacking information and understanding, that it's an unsophisticated argument) and hate-filled.

Note, NZ homeless are very different to US homeless.

It's difficult to see it from my perspective until you've seen the people I mean, but I suspect you would agree with me then if you were to see what I'm referring too.

These people, some of them seem pretty messed up, but the vast majority seem very capable. I seriously believe they're just unemployed. And tell me, why should I give them money when my taxes are already paying for everything they need (minus booze and drugs)?

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09-05-2013, 10:10 PM
RE: Homeless people.
I don't hate you; I was making a point. I don't like "smelly" homeless people either. Wink Just put up some Roman style bath houses with free cologne handed out Tongue But I do have enough compassion to know there are homeless people out there who DON'T intrude on your, or anyone else's, time that DON'T deserve your enmity! I'd be more comfortable you saying all TrainWreck's Laughat suck. I doubt there's many who would disagree.

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09-05-2013, 10:35 PM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2013 10:45 PM by bbeljefe.)
RE: Homeless people.
(09-05-2013 09:52 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  These people do have the ability to get a home, get a job etc..
How hard is it to collect trolley's for example?
Hell, how hard is it to live on the unemployment?? That's my biggest problem, you can literally survive off the unemployment benefit... That's what it's for.
You can be a total idiot and the welfare people will sort out everything for you.

This is the whole reason I have a problem with them, they do have the means, no they're not incapable because they can be complete idiots and still survive off the unemployment and never work a day in their life.
I don't mind supporting people via taxes that are incapable of working, I just don't want those same people then on the streets driving me crazy. There is ZERO reason for them to be on the streets other then to purposely fuck with me.

If the state wasn't providing for them I would have empathy for them, but it does, so I don't.

It'll be interesting to ride down the streets at night in the middle of winter and see how many suddenly have homes to go too...

They have the opportunity to get a home and a job and even a free handout. They don't have the ability to maintain those things.

Have you heard this song?





It's a great song but I find that it's not that popular. I think that's because it points out a lot of uncomfortable truths about the way people treat other people. But think about the last verse... if you see a homeless man living in a box and wearing his underwear outside his pants, do you honestly think that the only thing standing between this man and success in life is a few of your tax dollars?

Like I said above, this isn't an economic issue. These people aren't homeless because they can't manage money. They can't manage money because they don't have the mental capacity to do so. You can give them all the money in the world and they will still not bathe.... they'll still use heroine or drink alcohol. Money isn't the problem these people have.

As for living on the streets during winter, I'd have thought you would be better educated about the plight of the homeless before launching an all out assault on them. But since you aren't, I'll share my experience with them.

Most of them are homeless year round. Some aren't and those are more often than not the panhandlers standing in an intersection actively pursuing handouts. From a business perspective, these are the more motivated, intuitive among the homeless and most of them are frauds.

In my town, the genuinely downtrodden homeless gather behind an old train station that is now a gay bar that houses a weekly tranny show. They gather there because the people who run the bar don't call the cops on them and they allow them to burn construction debris in barrels in order to stay warm during the winter. When my wife is working on a movie (in craft service) she takes the day's leftover food to them and when it gets really cold we take blankets and hot stews to the people at the train station. Most of them are there every year with an occasional new arrival and an occasional absent regular but on par, they are the same people year after year.

Here's the club:
[Image: ?ID=3244&PhotoID=900]

If you ever find yourself in Shreveport, this is a great place for a drink and an awesome show.

Here's what's behind the club:

[Image: showPicture.aspx?id=2331119]

This is an old engine that is now an unofficial homeless shelter. It is standing room only in the winter.


I understand that these people are annoying. I really do. But these people do not set out on a plan inconvenience you or I. They are doing the best they can with the broken minds they have.

Try to kick off your shoes for a moment and step into theirs. It isn't a pleasant experience and they know it.

EDIT: Dunno why the images don't work... the URLS do.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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09-05-2013, 10:35 PM
RE: Homeless people.
"Sqwuark.... ohhh Mr woof how your views against gay people are horrendous and horrific to me personally that I am going to spend the rest of my sad and lonely existence following you around harrasing you on this forum.... Sqwuark.... Mr woof you are nothing but a bigot and I hope you and your family burn in hell because I fucking hate you so much, with your old fashioned, inexperienced and unempathetic views"

Your a hypocrite muffs.

"Sqwuark.... there is a difference between being gay and being homeless though bemore, I cant help the way I am and the cards life has dealt me and am simply getting on the only way I know how"

Pretty much like everyone, including homeless people.

"Sqwuark.... but they can get jobs, they can pull themselves out of the personal hell holes they may be experiencing, its like all people dont share the same views as me and if I owned my own business I would of course employ all people who have no fixed abode, I would have zero problem with choosing just homeless people to work for me over people who have a bit more stability in their lifes and are lucky enough to have more than monetary support and have support off friends and family"


Ohhhhh... it REALLY is that simple, shit, why did I not see that before!?!?!?!?!?!?!

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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09-05-2013, 10:49 PM
RE: Homeless people.
Hey, Stark.

Thanks, brother. Much appreciated.

Hey, Earmuff.

And Canada is very different than the US Cool

I'm having a lot of trouble. To me, it feels like you're coming off like the WBC on this one. Your position is so extreme, so caustic and, at least from my perspective, so utterly divorced from reality, that I can't think of any rational arguments.

How about this? Do you think you could write a post that passionately explained and defended their position? That is to say, could you explain where they are coming from and the challenges they face, or would it just read, "We're hopeless write offs?"

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-05-2013, 11:23 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 12:07 AM by kim.)
RE: Homeless people.
(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
kim Wrote:Interesting. I've read a few statistical essays on the homeless as a population and here are people in the US who actually go around and gather demographics on those populations. Personally, I try to figure out what type of homeless people there are in the area wherever I happen to be. From personal experience, it always appears to be people from a group who may have formerly been oppressed or disenfranchised in some way, while many or most, just seem to have been on the edge and then fell through. Once a group or individual falls into that kind of entropic system, it's difficult to climb out.

No, I don't buy into this. Especially here.
There are plenty of very successful Maori, there are even heaps of Maori politicians. Not to mention Maori Iwi (tribes) are super super rich.
Maori have far more opportunity then any other ethnical race in this country.
If they choose to take those opportunities or not is on them and if they choose to use their background as an excuse not to take those opportunities, then fuck them.

Many of our Natives are extremely wealthy also but, it depends on the tribe and location and even quite simply, the family. Natives in Oklahoma have oil, Navajo are wealthy, most Hopi in the SW states are dirt fucking poor, while here in Kansas, some tribes own casinos.

However, wealthy Natives do not live on the reservations. Many who do, are often caught in a faulty system of abject poverty and may wind up homeless. The odds will always be against them ever making it off the reservation. Here, choosing to take opportunities that aren't always evident or even available, is not an uncommon issue.

Also, a very important aspect of the situation is that in the US, it is not always apparent how to work the system. Oh, and trust between the US and the Indian Nations... ooooh... that is a topic which just might fill a couple of pages of thread. Don't quote me on this but, I'm really not sure there is not a single treaty between the US and the Natives, that the US hasn't broken in some way or simply ignored. That has often been a real bone of contention for Native peoples.

However, as I said, they do try and have had success taking care of their own but because of reservation restrictions, much of this work has only recently begun to be organized. We'll see. Hey, these are the same people who have successfully booted all Catholic establishments off Native lands so, there is hope. Thumbsup

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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09-05-2013, 11:56 PM (This post was last modified: 10-05-2013 03:12 AM by fat cat.)
RE: Homeless people.
(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Why should I help those that will not help themselves?

Why should you not help those that will not help themselves? Why should you not have empathy for those who don't help themselves? Why should you hate those who don't help themselves? Why should you ask why you should do anything? "Should" is entirely up to arbitrary choice. You can act on whatever idea you have of what you "should" do, and those who squander their welfare on drugs and alcohol can do the same with their own ideas of what they "should" do.

And "reason" as you've been using it is the same way. Whatever reason you choose is reason enough to not empathize with others is not reason enough for me to not empathize with them, but that's just my own opinion.

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  My parents are poor as fuck, you don't see me using that as an excuse? I worked for all I have now, my motorbike, my computer, my tv, my xbox, cloths etc.. Everything I own I own because I worked for it.

Having worked for all you have doesn't agree with your talk in the "purpose" thread of being "outstanding", nor does you specifically owning a motorbike, computer, TV, Xbox, and clothing, nor does you not empathizing with the homeless. [sarcasm]And here I was starting to think you might have actually not been "insignificant".[/sarcasm]

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  And yes I might bitch and complain about not having enough money for this that and the other but I don't ask you guys for money? I don't ask anyone for money, but I will ask the state for money if I really need it because that's what it's there for.

If you support the homeless by paying taxes, how is you receiving money from the state different from asking the general populous for money?

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  AND I don't make excuses or blame anyone else for where I am today.

I've never suffered from cancer, but that hasn't prevented me from giving money to cancer victims. Likewise, I don't recall ever making excuses when seeking help, but that hasn't prevented me from helping those who have made excuses. It's simply a matter of individual choice who to help, if anybody.

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Though I suspect they're not homeless and annoy me when I'm coming out of noodle canteen, so probably not.

"Annoyance" is the result of cooperative effort composed of what others do and how you perceive their actions. By saying they "annoy" you, you're not only describing their actions but also blaming them for your own thinking.

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I doubt it, they'll always pester me for money and call me names when I don't give it, they'll always stand in shop doorways asking for money, take up all the fast food seats and be a constant eye sore on the streets. Thus, I will likely always hate them.

Your doubt/your belief in what they will "always" do is irrelevant to what determines their actions. Conclusive predictions of human behavior are naive notions.

Also, the notion of "eye sore" is subjective, just like the notion that discrimination on the basis of aesthetics is "shallow".

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  I think people make excuses for them because they feel sorry for them for being on the side walk begging for money.

If you've gotten that impression from reading this thread, I think you misunderstand people who have been disagreeing with you.

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  It's not.. what's the word? emotionally acceptable to hate them.

That's relative to each person's emotions.

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  There are very successful people who have had similar if not harder backgrounds then a lot of homeless people. The difference between them and homeless people is that they didn't use it as an excuse to make poor decisions or not try.

How do you know what others are using as an excuse? People can make "poor" decisions knowing they are "poor". People can choose to not try simply because they don't want to try. Making "poor" decisions and not trying do not require excuses.

(09-05-2013 06:17 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Yet somehow people feel empathic towards homeless people, it baffles me, it's not rational.

This seems to me to be the misunderstanding you have. I believe the empathy people have been mentioning has less to do with feeling and more to do with thinking. As far as I can tell, they're basically telling you to stop stereotyping/generalizing/discriminating against the homeless and start perceiving the homeless individually.

(09-05-2013 09:52 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  There is ZERO reason for them to be on the streets other then to purposely fuck with me.

Fuck with you, huh?

(09-05-2013 09:52 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  It's difficult to see it from my perspective until you've seen the people I mean, but I suspect you would agree with me then if you were to see what I'm referring too.

I suspect Ghost would not agree with you even if he saw the people you were referring to. Our suspicions are completely irrelevant to how he would react, though.

(09-05-2013 09:52 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  And tell me, why should I give them money when my taxes are already paying for everything they need (minus booze and drugs)?

Do you know that your taxes are already paying for everything they need, or is that just your unfounded belief?

(09-05-2013 01:56 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  [video=youtube]Ha! Gaaayy.[/video]

While I appreciate your honesty, I take your response as indication you are generally ignorant and narcissistic. No matter how capable or incapable anyone is of anything, we all depend more on a foundation of things given us than on the things we've created for ourselves. We don't know how to control our self control, and in effect can't control our self control. I labeled that "wandering through existence", but one could come up with many phrases for it. If you really considered that "gay", then I'd say your underlying desire that other peoples' posts pander to your preferences is not so different from homeless folk who yell at you when you don't give them money.
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10-05-2013, 01:21 AM
Homeless people.
Bbeljefe,

What I meant is that gutter punk kids need their asses taken care of by a drill instructor. When those losers ask me for money, I truly wanna slap em. Some of them hold a fkn sign that say that is for weed or a beer. They are walking garbage, even worse, parasites.

All other homeless need responsible authorities and not a bunch of guilty Christians to bring them food and stuff. Most of them are in the streets thanks to mr Reagan.

For the most part they can't even take care of themselves, they need our taxes as social service more than GM or big banks need a bail.

Look, I live in Oakland and work on San Francisco which is infested by homeless from all over the country.

This country builds prisons like maniacs but not institutions to take care of them.

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10-05-2013, 03:21 AM
RE: Homeless people.
Weeeeee_Zard, I've spent only a couple days in San Francisco, but I've spent years in Portland which I imagine is quite similar largely due to I-5 and the culture there. I've spent a fair amount of time around "gutter punk kids". If they're asking for money without expecting or forcing people to give them anything, like most I've witnessed, then they aren't even close to parasites. I say "close to", because parasites take without asking in the first place.
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10-05-2013, 05:44 AM
RE: Homeless people.
(10-05-2013 01:21 AM)Weeeeee_Zard Wrote:  Bbeljefe,

What I meant is that gutter punk kids need their asses taken care of by a drill instructor. When those losers ask me for money, I truly wanna slap em. Some of them hold a fkn sign that say that is for weed or a beer. They are walking garbage, even worse, parasites.

All other homeless need responsible authorities and not a bunch of guilty Christians to bring them food and stuff. Most of them are in the streets thanks to mr Reagan.

For the most part they can't even take care of themselves, they need our taxes as social service more than GM or big banks need a bail.

Look, I live in Oakland and work on San Francisco which is infested by homeless from all over the country.

This country builds prisons like maniacs but not institutions to take care of them.

Depends on your perspective. Well... that and a bit of reality.

I submit to you that beggars on the street ask for your or my money and we choose based on any number of criteria but, most importantly, the individual asking... whether to give them money or not to. Often, I choose to offer them food instead. Some take it and some don't. Their choice... my choice.

Your Army drill instructor on the other hand, takes his or her pay directly from money that is extracted from you and I without our consideration or direct consent. We do not get to choose whether the drill instructor is deserving of the money we give up to him. We can not choose not to hand over a portion of your earned income to those who scream and yell at new recruits, effectively brainwashing young men and women for the purpose of having the robotically murder and be murdered on other continents.

The truth is that the parasitic relationship is between us and the drill sergeant, not us and the beggar. The perspective may differ between us and that's fine but, neither of us can change the truth of that arrangement.


And regarding my previous comment, it has been shown over and over and over again in study after study for at least the last forty years that "tough love" is simply abuse veiled in good intentions. It may harden the person but it does nothing to make them a better person. It may gain you immediate compliant behavior but it may also gain you a suicide or worse, a spree or serial killer. At best, an unempathetic robot who's already unhappy life is made worse by the humiliation you would visit on them.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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