Homeopathy mechanism(s)
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30-05-2013, 07:20 AM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(30-05-2013 12:00 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  The fuck?!? Same goddam thing.

Or is it a like thing?
Yes
No, I meant essentially what you'd already said (hooray for redundancy!). Vaccination works when it is the same virus or antigen being used, which has nothing to do with how homeopaths interpret the "like against like" principle.

It just happens to use the same words, depending on how phrase it; rather an unfortunate coincidence.
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30-05-2013, 10:54 AM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
From personal experience and study over the past 25 years, I have a vastly different view of homeopathy. I am an example of someone who turned to homeopathy when conventional medicine failed. I am a certified medical transcriptionist and was its champion until I personally was affected.

Not only did homeopathy save my life, homeopathic remedies have worked for me and my family for over 20 years.

Homeopathic Sulphur cured two cases of conventionally treated mange in a dog of my husband’s aunt and the dog of one of my friends.

Two family members with broken bones were facing surgery to repair. Homeopathic
Symphytum cured the breaks without surgery. Before and after x-rays and ultrasound.
documented the healing.

Apis mellifica prevented the swelling and allergic reaction to several wasp stings on my legs.

Silicea opened and helped drain a benign lipoma the size of a golf ball from our family dog’s right shoulder. No veterinary intervention required.

Rhus tox helped my husband avoid back surgery for two herniated discs at the L4-L5 level (also documented by x-ray and ultrasound.) He had been walking with a cane for six months.

I could go on and on citing successes with homeopathy. There is a plethora of books on homeopathy that document the curative effect of homeopathic medicine in the hands of a classical homeopath. One excellent book for the layman, by Anthony R. Dooley, M.D. is “Homeopathy, Beyond Flat Earth Medicine”.
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30-05-2013, 07:27 PM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(30-05-2013 07:20 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Vaccination works when it is the same virus or antigen being used ...

Think Jenner first used cowpox as a vaccination against smallpox so "like" is the more proper term. Tongue

(30-05-2013 07:20 AM)cjlr Wrote:  ... which has nothing to do with how homeopaths interpret the "like against like" principle. It just happens to use the same words, depending on how phrase it; rather an unfortunate coincidence.

Yes, that is unfortunate, but too late now, it's apparently been co-opted.

(30-05-2013 10:54 AM)sandra hermann courtney Wrote:  From personal experience and study over the past 25 years, I have a vastly different view of homeopathy. I am an example of someone who turned to homeopathy when conventional medicine failed.

Chas, and the rest of us, are interested in plausible mechanisms of action for how this can possibly be effective. If the lower the concentration the more stimulating the effect, why wouldn't a 0% concentration be the most effective of all?

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30-05-2013, 09:45 PM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(30-05-2013 07:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Think Jenner first used cowpox as a vaccination against smallpox so "like" is the more proper term. Tongue
Yeah, but I had variolation in mind as the first case (a tiny exposure to a healthy person, to deliberately create a low-mortality case of smallpox itself). Which IS same on same (variolation from the latin variola, ie smallpox). Vaccinations in general are, as you say, often like on like Yes.

Bonus fact: the word vaccination comes from cowpox. Vacca is latin for cow...

(30-05-2013 07:27 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Chas, and the rest of us, are interested in plausible mechanisms of action for how this can possibly be effective. If the lower the concentration the more stimulating the effect, why wouldn't a 0% concentration be the most effective of all?

Indeed. If dilution increased potency, why has James Randi suffered approximately zero ill effects from downing entire bottles of high-C homeopathic preparations?
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30-05-2013, 10:07 PM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(30-05-2013 10:54 AM)sandra hermann courtney Wrote:  From personal experience and study over the past 25 years, I have a vastly different view of homeopathy. I am an example of someone who turned to homeopathy when conventional medicine failed. I am a certified medical transcriptionist and was its champion until I personally was affected.

Not only did homeopathy save my life, homeopathic remedies have worked for me and my family for over 20 years.

Homeopathic Sulphur cured two cases of conventionally treated mange in a dog of my husband’s aunt and the dog of one of my friends.

Two family members with broken bones were facing surgery to repair. Homeopathic
Symphytum cured the breaks without surgery. Before and after x-rays and ultrasound.
documented the healing.

Apis mellifica prevented the swelling and allergic reaction to several wasp stings on my legs.

Silicea opened and helped drain a benign lipoma the size of a golf ball from our family dog’s right shoulder. No veterinary intervention required.

Rhus tox helped my husband avoid back surgery for two herniated discs at the L4-L5 level (also documented by x-ray and ultrasound.) He had been walking with a cane for six months.

I could go on and on citing successes with homeopathy. There is a plethora of books on homeopathy that document the curative effect of homeopathic medicine in the hands of a classical homeopath. One excellent book for the layman, by Anthony R. Dooley, M.D. is “Homeopathy, Beyond Flat Earth Medicine”.

I won't doubt your sincerity in believing what you wrote, but there is no good reason to believe homeopathy works. I like this guy's youtube channel in general, and in particular his demonstration of consuming homeopathic bleach in effort to critique and debunk homeopathy:






This one titled "Proving Homeopathy Wrong in Your Kitchen" is also a fun one to watch:






He has others on the topic since he seems to like doing debunking videos in addition to his other standard fair of fun science demos.
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30-05-2013, 10:47 PM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(25-05-2013 04:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  Is it primarily the memory of the molecules in the water that is the scientific explanation for the effectiveness of homeopathy? Consider

Pseudoscientific explanation, yes.

Actual science, no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUt15WbF1_4

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31-05-2013, 06:24 AM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(30-05-2013 10:47 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(25-05-2013 04:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  Is it primarily the memory of the molecules in the water that is the scientific explanation for the effectiveness of homeopathy? Consider

Pseudoscientific explanation, yes.

Actual science, no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUt15WbF1_4

Link to abstract of research study at MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas showing cytotoxic effects with homeopathic dilutions against two lines of breast cancer cells.

http://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/36/2/395
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31-05-2013, 06:29 AM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(28-05-2013 05:30 AM)Snowyflake Wrote:  http://www.skepticat.org/2009/03/homeopathy/

There are many peer reviewed journal articles discrediting homeopathic 'medicine'. It doesn't work. The NHS in Britain had a homeopathic hospital in London and as the NHS requires all of its treatments to be evidence-based, they ceased funding for what is essentially snake oil.

Link to abstract of scientific research study using homeopathic dilutions showing cytotoxic effects against two lines of breast cancer cells. Study conducted at the MD Anderson Cancer Research and Treatment Center in Texas.

http://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/36/2/395
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31-05-2013, 07:06 AM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(31-05-2013 06:29 AM)sandra hermann courtney Wrote:  
(28-05-2013 05:30 AM)Snowyflake Wrote:  http://www.skepticat.org/2009/03/homeopathy/

There are many peer reviewed journal articles discrediting homeopathic 'medicine'. It doesn't work. The NHS in Britain had a homeopathic hospital in London and as the NHS requires all of its treatments to be evidence-based, they ceased funding for what is essentially snake oil.

Link to abstract of scientific research study using homeopathic dilutions showing cytotoxic effects against two lines of breast cancer cells. Study conducted at the MD Anderson Cancer Research and Treatment Center in Texas.

http://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/36/2/395

Quote:Way back in March, I took note of a particularly egregious bit of quackademic medicine published in the International Journal of Oncology. True, the IJO is not a top-tier, or even a second-tier, journal, but it is peer-reviewed and in general I never thought of it as a journal that sucked; that is, at least, until March. In contrast to the mediocre journal, the research group that published this study came from one of the two most respected cancer centers in the U.S., namely the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center. Published by Frankel et al and Cytotoxic effects of ultra-diluted remedies on breast cancer cells, the study brought down the righteous wrath (or at least mockery) of Dr. Rachel Dunlop and, of course, yours truly. That’s because this was a study of homeopathy and breast cancer. That’s right, homeopathy and breast cancer. As Dr. Rachie and I pointed out, the study was riddled with methodological flaws that rendered its conclusions completely unsupported. In fact, the study didn’t show what its authors think it showed; in reality what it showed is that alcohol can be toxic to breast cancer cells in solution as certain chemotherapeutic drugs. Well, that, and random noise. Quackademic medicine doesn’t get much quackier than that, and this was right at M.D. Anderson, what should be the heart of science-based medicine in the world of oncology. Meanwhile, homeopaths trumpeted that homepathy killed breast cancer cells and was “non-toxic.”

~from http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/0...ight-back/

Quote:Ah statistics, huh?
There is a distinct lack of statistics in this paper, by which I mean there are none at all. As my friend Jo said; “Nary a p-value nor a confidence interval to be seen”. Which begs the question, how can you get a paper accepted in a peer reviewed journal without doing an statistical analysis?
Really? No, I mean REALLY? This is why I suspect the reviewers were dozing or drunk.
And by not doing any statistical analysis, you can not make any statements about whether the treatments are different to each other. Statistics uses algorithms to calculate mathematical differences with a degree of confidence (usually 95%) so that we don’t rely on visual interpretation, which is notoriously unreliable. But this doesn’t seem to have bothered these authors, or the reviewers.

~from http://scepticsbook.com/2010/02/14/a-gia...d-science/

Why you even trying this shit? Don't you know where you are?

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31-05-2013, 11:55 AM
RE: Homeopathy mechanism(s)
(31-05-2013 06:29 AM)sandra hermann courtney Wrote:  
(28-05-2013 05:30 AM)Snowyflake Wrote:  http://www.skepticat.org/2009/03/homeopathy/

There are many peer reviewed journal articles discrediting homeopathic 'medicine'. It doesn't work. The NHS in Britain had a homeopathic hospital in London and as the NHS requires all of its treatments to be evidence-based, they ceased funding for what is essentially snake oil.

Link to abstract of scientific research study using homeopathic dilutions showing cytotoxic effects against two lines of breast cancer cells. Study conducted at the MD Anderson Cancer Research and Treatment Center in Texas.

http://www.spandidos-publications.com/ijo/36/2/395

Integrative Medicine Program-Unit 145, The University of Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX 77030-4009, USA. frenkelm@netvision.net.il

Any medical professional using the term integrative should be a giant red flag. Signaling danger for you and your pocket book.

http://www.ecso.org/topics/alt-med/30-ho...ast-cancer
All this paper proves is that concentrated alcohol is very toxic for cell cultures, it kills cells.

The results do not warrant any conclusion about efficacy in patients.

The results are not compelling us yet to re-write the laws of chemistry and physics or to conclude that alcohol has a memory.

Alcohol has a biological activity, even more in such a high concentration.

In the conclusions they compare the remedies with the known cancer drug Taxol and conclude that the homeopathics are as effective. This is misleading. In a test tube, perhaps bleach is even more effective there.

The authors also write that more in vitro and animal tests are needed. Let's hope they will be more careful in analysing the remedies and solvents. I bet that with proper blinding the so called effect will disappear, as it did in the memory of water saga.

The inventor of this “special type” of homeopathy is Dr Banjeri, who runs a cancer treatment centre in India. They are not waiting for more research, they are selling this “memory of alcohol” treatment for many types of cancer and other ailments since decades. They define themselves as “a center for path breaking treatment for acute as well as chronic diseases by the use of “The Banerji Protocol” of treatment using homeopathic medicines”.

This paper is cited by more and more homeopaths though it is in contradiction with the homeopathic doctrine: no individualisation. They only have the diluting and shaking as common procedures.

In contrast with traditional homeopathy the Banjeri homeopathy protocol prescribes “specific medicines for specific diseases”. That should be easy to test convincingly with double blind methods, but until now they have only presented papers with “best cases”, or released some not controllable percentages of stabilisation or healing, but those even are not better than the known percentages for no-treatment . That is not the way to convince the scientific community.

The Banjeri's are not shy of publicity: they announce that they are prepared to treat patients during space flights and on the Moon, from their website: “Drs. Prasanta & Pratip Banerji of PBHRF presented a paper on Possible Use of Ultra-Diluted Medicines For Health Problems During Lunar Missions at the Rutgers Symposium on Lunar Settlements.” My personal opinion: it should not be very difficult to make homeopathy completely lunatic.

Other more detailed analyses of this study were also made by our American skeptic friends in skepticsbook and scienceblogs.

The unanimous conclusion is that this study is so flawed that it is a blame for the journal that has published it. It certainly is not proof for any biologic effect of ultra high dilutions, let alone of cancer curing properties.

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