Homophobia
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16-09-2010, 07:03 PM
 
Homophobia
I finally got around to listening to the TA podcast with Zinnia Jones, and I thought he did an amazing job. He made an interesting point about the relatedness of homophobia and misogyny in our culture that I thought was pretty fascinating.

I'm not a militant feminist who sees inequality everywhere, but it is present in our culture on some level. If it wasn't men wouldn't call each other names that demean women. Pussy, son of a bitch, "ladies", "You throw like a girl", and the list goes on and on. If less evolved men weren't so uncomfortable with femininity, would they be concerned about men who are effeminate?
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16-09-2010, 07:15 PM
RE: Homophobia
You're right it is a cultural thing, in the male crowds if you can't show yourself as tough a lot of the time you will be targeted, I believe thats where a lot of it stems from is trying to look tougher to everyone else.
The funny thing about this is I've seen 15 year old girls make a grown man cry xD

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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17-09-2010, 12:34 AM
RE: Homophobia
It is a weakness in men that make their leaders able to manipulate them and do all their dirty work for them. ie. Osama bin Laden didn't fly any of the 9/11 airplanes. Adolph Hitler was never on the front line during World War 2. Kings, presidents and dictators send others out to fight their wars for them. Al Capone had his goons, etc, etc.
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17-09-2010, 02:20 AM
 
RE: Homophobia
I'm going to say this once again. Words only have the power to be offensive or demeaning to you if you let them!

I think I'm quite comfortable with the equality of women on many levels. But while many women do "throw like a girl", this is far from true for all women. The whole problem with stereotyping on the basis of race or gender or whatever is that individuals don't necessarily fit the stereotype. I have no problem with accepting the fact that there are women who are taller, smarter, stronger, more athletic, better at math, etc. than me. I don't feel threatened by that. There are also men who are taller, smarter, stronger, more athletic, better at math, etc. than me. So what?

Clearly, there are average physical differences between genders that make it harder for women to excel at certain things, but other other gender differences make it harder for men to excel at certain things - on the average. Knowing that the average woman might "throw like a girl" doesn't mean that the next woman you meet will do so! If you throw like a girl, be you male or female, I suspect that this is because you don't really care much about that, or you'd do something about it. If you don't care about it, why should the words be demeaning to you?

Prejudice against anyone for any reason means that you believe that some trait that another person has tells you everything you need to know about that person. You have "pre-judged" them on the basis of that trait. The evidence is clear in everyday experience if you just open your eyes ... prejudice simply fails as a way to know someone. It's just plain stupid and counterfactual.

I have many friends who are homosexuals (both gay and lesbian), and the only thing that matters to me is that they're my friends. What they do with their sex lives is not my business unless they want to discuss it with me. And that's that!
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17-09-2010, 06:23 AM
 
RE: Homophobia
<bookmark>

I'm going to come back to this one in the morning.
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17-09-2010, 07:35 AM
RE: Homophobia
Quote:Words only have the power to be offensive or demeaning to you if you let them!

I think you underestimate the power of words. Words motivated the Germans to send an army to march on Europe. stirred millions of people to embrace the philosophy of non-violence during the civil rights movement, and the Mansion Family to commit brutal, senseless murders.

Words matter, and they can raise you up and slam you down.

As for your comment that you can only be offended if you choose to be, while that may technically true, it is equally true that being intimidated and the societal exclusion that often accompanies these words are not a choice.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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17-09-2010, 08:12 AM
 
RE: Homophobia
(17-09-2010 07:35 AM)BnW Wrote:  
Quote:Words only have the power to be offensive or demeaning to you if you let them!

I think you underestimate the power of words. Words motivated the Germans to send an army to march on Europe. stirred millions of people to embrace the philosophy of non-violence during the civil rights movement, and the Mansion Family to commit brutal, senseless murders.

Words matter, and they can raise you up and slam you down.

If all that's involved is words, then my statement stands. Words didn't "motivate" the Germans ... all they did was push them into certain directions where the majority of the population was already leaning: anti-semitism and frustration with the nascent German democratic government, in particular. I'm not ignoring the power of words - only their power to offend. The "Manson family" may have been persuaded to commit violence by words, but their horror is not that they offended their victims. They murdered them! Mere words can only "slam you down" if you let them do so, unless they're accompanied by more tangible harm.

(17-09-2010 07:35 AM)BnW Wrote:  As for your comment that you can only be offended if you choose to be, while that may technically true, it is equally true that being intimidated and the societal exclusion that often accompanies these words are not a choice.

Well, apparently we're going to have to disagree about this. What you call 'intimidation' can't be limited to mere words - it has to be accompanied by real physical harm or it's still just words. Societal exclusion isn't just words, either.
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17-09-2010, 08:36 AM
RE: Homophobia
Words can be used to both intimidate or to make it known you are not welcome. "Fag" jokes, as an example, may send a very clear message. That's my only point.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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17-09-2010, 09:02 AM
 
RE: Homophobia
(17-09-2010 02:20 AM)2buckchuck Wrote:  I'm going to say this once again. [b]Words only have the power to be offensive or demeaning to you if you let them!

I guess I was speaking more to the power of words and their uses to reflect the general attitudes of a society. While I might not be personally offended at someone telling me I throw like a girl (since I do), the fact that so many derogatory statements that men direct at each other are actually statements about women says something about our society.
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17-09-2010, 09:05 AM
 
RE: Homophobia
(17-09-2010 08:36 AM)BnW Wrote:  Words can be used to both intimidate or to make it known you are not welcome. "Fag" jokes, as an example, may send a very clear message. That's my only point.
I see that. But the implied message with "fag" jokes is the possibility of physical violence on the part of presumed homophobes. I have stories to tell along these lines, but I won't share them here. Suffice it to say that identical words coming from different sources can have very different meanings to the hearers of those words. To me, the difference between the situations is one of implied intent. But the objective words are the same! Hence, the power of those words is granted by the hearer, with the assumption of intent. Remember "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me!"?

Many people choose to be offended by the things that other people say, regardless of how stupid or ignorant those words may be. If there's no implied or overt threat, then there's only the objective words. Their ability to offend or demean is granted by the hearer. If you choose not to be offended or demeaned, you eradicate their power totally.
(17-09-2010 09:02 AM)athnostic Wrote:  I guess I was speaking more to the power of words and their uses to reflect the general attitudes of a society. While I might not be personally offended at someone telling me I throw like a girl (since I do), the fact that so many derogatory statements that men direct at each other are actually statements about women says something about our society.

OK - that might well be true, but you admit that you do "throw like a girl". If you don't care about it personally, then it should have no capacity to offend, and can be seen just as a way to describe someone's throwing ability - without any particularly bothersome overtones if you choose not to infer them (or care about them).

I suspect that such derogatory statements by men to one another say less about women than it does about deep-seated insecurities that many men seem to have. I wonder what the origins of those insecurities might be? Could it be that we feel a need to impress women (and other men) with our "masculine" traits? Do women (on the average) care much about what we males consider to be important masculine traits? That's one I can't answer ... I get conflicting signals ...

I don't think it's necessary to see this as some generic disrespect toward women, although I understand how it might be interpreted that way. There may in fact be things about this topic that reflect on our society, but I just don't see them the way you apparently do.
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