Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
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16-03-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
Yes. You're homophobic.
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16-03-2016, 11:48 AM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2016 11:53 AM by carol.)
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
(16-03-2016 09:41 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  My question is:
What do you understand by the word homophobic?

Is being very cautious when approached by a homosexual person considered homophobic?

Eg. If a known gay person continuously calls you "dear" "sweetie" or "honey" each time they negatively respond to you & you ask them to stop doing that is this being Homophobic. What if he wasn't gay, would you still be justified in asking them to desist?

I think it might be Homophobic but for a good cause. What do you think?

I think that being cautious when being approached by a homosexual person is homophobic. For example, if you replaced the words "homosexual" with the word "black, asian, woman, lesbian, disabled person, old person"...and so on...it would show an innate distrust...and why would you distrust somerone simply because they are gay? What would make you distrust any particular sub group of people that have not done something criminal to you? I understand and approve of distrusting people who have done something aggressive or criminal to you, but how could someone else being gay cause you any harm? If you are very lucky it would simply mean thay may find you attractive...if another woman finds me attractve I find it flattering, and I am not gay.
As for the specific language that people use, because this forum is multicultural and multi ethnic and so forth- there are many different forms of communication. If you have only lived in one country in one area, you are not used to the language people use all over the world. It may make you stop and reconsider your ideas if you think about how other cultures have different communication styles and ideas about what is appropriate. Even hand gestures and body language is often misunderstood by different cultures.
A few weeks back someone posted about how 'passive aggressive drivers" used hand gestures to communicate- I would bet that the person has never driven in different countries, or in different areas around their own country- as hand gestures are different every place that you live. The point is that the person found it 'passive aggressive" when the other people may have simply been using cultural specific hand gestures. I have seen different hand gestures when driving all over the world. It is the same with language- people in different parts of the world have different ideas about sweetie, darling, and so forth...and even if it was sarcastic, it should not matter. People say things when they are heated...the conversation is more important than getting bogged down with languge.

You have a form of autism, which should be taken into account in order for me to try to communicate with you with kindness...and you should examine yourself for your own bias and try harder to see that people are so very different that how they express themselves is not as important as trying to get at the meaning of what they say.

Examine yourself to see why you are so offended by the words "honey, sweetie and darling-" if said to you by a gay person... and if you are willing to, examine yourself to see what makes you feel the way that you do about gay people. I think that you are smart and also I have confidence in your ability to reflect and to be willing to change. I have not written you off, because I do understand a lot about autism, and I feel that some of your confusion, repetitive behavior and fixation on specifics may be caused by autism. I think autistic people are usually kind, willing to learn and good friends when they try to get past their own inability to regulate their own emotions-

( BTW, based upon your previous posts, you need to reread the links you posted about women/emotions as you completely misunderstood the study, and also it was not even large enough to be statistically significant)

I will try to be supportive of you. But when you are dead wrong I will tell you why I think you are. I will not argue with you though, or let you get so fixated on something that we are losing track of the conversation. It will not be helpful to you.
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16-03-2016, 12:05 PM
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
Your question is somewhat disingenuous, since it arises out of a situation where you were in a heated argument and were trying to insult another poster and were insulted in return. That you chose gender and then sexual orientation as the basis for your insults does lead an observer of that conversation to think yes, you may be homophobic. You're coming across that way in your posts.

However, another reading of your responses suggests that you aren't comfortable around people in general, and that women and gay men are more confusing/unsettling to you. Understandable, maybe, in light of your ASD, but at some point it is necessary for all of us to learn to meet people in the middle somewhat. I'm not sure that's what you are trying to do here. I suspect that instead you're trying to get more data points to prove you're correct. However, I hope you eventually use this information in a more productive way.
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16-03-2016, 12:17 PM
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
I'm a female and I don't like straight men calling me honey, sweetie, or dear if they are not my bf. I find it degrading, especially in the workplace. If it bothers you because you feel like you are being talked down to--then no, I don't think it's homophobic. If you don't like it simply because this person is gay, then, imo, that would be homophobic.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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16-03-2016, 12:20 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2016 12:37 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
(16-03-2016 11:48 AM)carol Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 09:41 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  My question is:
What do you understand by the word homophobic?

Is being very cautious when approached by a homosexual person considered homophobic?

Eg. If a known gay person continuously calls you "dear" "sweetie" or "honey" each time they negatively respond to you & you ask them to stop doing that is this being Homophobic. What if he wasn't gay, would you still be justified in asking them to desist?

I think it might be Homophobic but for a good cause. What do you think?

I think that being cautious when being approached by a homosexual person is homophobic. For example, if you replaced the words "homosexual" with the word "black, asian, woman, lesbian, disabled person, old person"...and so on...it would show an innate distrust...and why would you distrust somerone simply because they are gay? What would make you distrust any particular sub group of people that have not done something criminal to you? I understand and approve of distrusting people who have done something aggressive or criminal to you, but how could someone else being gay cause you any harm? If you are very lucky it would simply mean thay may find you attractive...if another woman finds me attractve I find it flattering, and I am not gay.
As for the specific language that people use, because this forum is multicultural and multi ethnic and so forth- there are many different forms of communication. If you have only lived in one country in one area, you are not used to the language people use all over the world. It may make you stop and reconsider your ideas if you think about how other cultures have different communication styles and ideas about what is appropriate. Even hand gestures and body language is often misunderstood by different cultures.
A few weeks back someone posted about how 'passive aggressive drivers" used hand gestures to communicate- I would bet that the person has never driven in different countries, or in different areas around their own country- as hand gestures are different every place that you live. The point is that the person found it 'passive aggressive" when the other people may have simply been using cultural specific hand gestures. I have seen different hand gestures when driving all over the world. It is the same with language- people in different parts of the world have different ideas about sweetie, darling, and so forth...and even if it was sarcastic, it should not matter. People say things when they are heated...the conversation is more important than getting bogged down with languge.

You have a form of autism, which should be taken into account in order for me to try to communicate with you with kindness...and you should examine yourself for your own bias and try harder to see that people are so very different that how they express themselves is not as important as trying to get at the meaning of what they say.

Examine yourself to see why you are so offended by the words "honey, sweetie and darling-" if said to you by a gay person... and if you are willing to, examine yourself to see what makes you feel the way that you do about gay people. I think that you are smart and also I have confidence in your ability to reflect and to be willing to change. I have not written you off, because I do understand a lot about autism, and I feel that some of your confusion, repetitive behavior and fixation on specifics may be caused by autism. I think autistic people are usually kind, willing to learn and good friends when they try to get past their own inability to regulate their own emotions-

( BTW, based upon your previous posts, you need to reread the links you posted about women/emotions as you completely misunderstood the study, and also it was not even large enough to be statistically significant)

I will try to be supportive of you. But when you are dead wrong I will tell you why I think you are. I will not argue with you though, or let you get so fixated on something that we are losing track of the conversation. It will not be helpful to you.
Are you saying that the context in which words are used should never be judged based on their sexual preference?
If a guy suddenly walks up to me in a club and says "hey juicy i think you are a devil" am I supposed to ignore the possibility that he might be gay and attracted to my devilish nature?
How is someone with Aspergers who does not read social behaviour and implied meanings as well as you all claim supposed to protect himself in these situations?

Suppose I personally do not want to be the subject of a gay man's personal desires for fear it may turn out to be something more threatening than that. Is this homophobic?
Is Protecting my physical health, sexual preferences & other such issues not something I need to be cautious about?

I already stated many times on these forums I am not sure of anything. This applies to everything including my sexual preferences. What if i like being straight and would like to protect the position I am most happy to be in, regardless of it being an illusion or not?

Do I not have the right to protect my current stance in life until such time as i see fit to change that stance?
Asking someone to desist from any homosexual comments towards me or anything closely resembling it is my right and even if it wasn't my right it's a strong desire & worthy cause in my opinion.

How is my desire to protect myself (what you call homophobia) something bad?
Caution is a form of fear just as phobias are a form of fear. They are on opposing sides of the spectrum.

Fear of heights is a good thing, it makes you cautious and reduces the possibility of you endangering your life due to high places. This is good, but what if I feared heights so much I was afraid to stand up? That would be bad.
Fear of drowning stops you from endangering your life due to drowning.
Fear is an evolutionary by product that helps us survive.
It is the first response to the unknown especially when we have a suspicion the unknown has the power to threaten your way of life.
Of course with further investigation and personal observation we may eventually know the true motive of the individual. Just exercise caution. I'm not saying to hit the guy in the face, that isn't exercising caution. That's a spectrum of self defense that is on the other end of the spectrum to blocking I think.

I think phobias are extreme cases of fear.

As with most things in life too much of anything can become harmful.
I think therefore that I am homo-cautious and not homophobic.
There is a difference and they belong on different ends of the spectrum of fear.
Caution is a good thing while phobia is not.

I see the world as a spectrum maybe in the same way as everyone else does but my disorder doesn't give me clarity as to which sides of the spectrum things belong on. I use more cognitive reasoning than primal instinct to determine how things fall on a spectrum.

Most people can do it based on primal instinct but Aspergers cases are not that "gifted".
It can be an advantage and a disadvantage.

I would make a good case study if ever someone wanted to study the world of Aspergers. That is of course if I have the disorder they claim I have.
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16-03-2016, 12:30 PM
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
(16-03-2016 12:20 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 11:48 AM)carol Wrote:  I think that being cautious when being approached by a homosexual person is homophobic. For example, if you replaced the words "homosexual" with the word "black, asian, woman, lesbian, disabled person, old person"...and so on...it would show an innate distrust...and why would you distrust somerone simply because they are gay? What would make you distrust any particular sub group of people that have not done something criminal to you? I understand and approve of distrusting people who have done something aggressive or criminal to you, but how could someone else being gay cause you any harm? If you are very lucky it would simply mean thay may find you attractive...if another woman finds me attractve I find it flattering, and I am not gay.
As for the specific language that people use, because this forum is multicultural and multi ethnic and so forth- there are many different forms of communication. If you have only lived in one country in one area, you are not used to the language people use all over the world. It may make you stop and reconsider your ideas if you think about how other cultures have different communication styles and ideas about what is appropriate. Even hand gestures and body language is often misunderstood by different cultures.
A few weeks back someone posted about how 'passive aggressive drivers" used hand gestures to communicate- I would bet that the person has never driven in different countries, or in different areas around their own country- as hand gestures are different every place that you live. The point is that the person found it 'passive aggressive" when the other people may have simply been using cultural specific hand gestures. I have seen different hand gestures when driving all over the world. It is the same with language- people in different parts of the world have different ideas about sweetie, darling, and so forth...and even if it was sarcastic, it should not matter. People say things when they are heated...the conversation is more important than getting bogged down with languge.

You have a form of autism, which should be taken into account in order for me to try to communicate with you with kindness...and you should examine yourself for your own bias and try harder to see that people are so very different that how they express themselves is not as important as trying to get at the meaning of what they say.

Examine yourself to see why you are so offended by the words "honey, sweetie and darling-" if said to you by a gay person... and if you are willing to, examine yourself to see what makes you feel the way that you do about gay people. I think that you are smart and also I have confidence in your ability to reflect and to be willing to change. I have not written you off, because I do understand a lot about autism, and I feel that some of your confusion, repetitive behavior and fixation on specifics may be caused by autism. I think autistic people are usually kind, willing to learn and good friends when they try to get past their own inability to regulate their own emotions-

( BTW, based upon your previous posts, you need to reread the links you posted about women/emotions as you completely misunderstood the study, and also it was not even large enough to be statistically significant)

I will try to be supportive of you. But when you are dead wrong I will tell you why I think you are. I will not argue with you though, or let you get so fixated on something that we are losing track of the conversation. It will not be helpful to you.
Are you saying that the context in which words are used should never be judged based on their sexual preference?
If a guy suddenly walks up to me in a club and says "hey juicy i think you are a devil" am I supposed to ignore the possibility that he might be gay and attracted to my devilish nature?
How is someone with Aspergers who does not read social behaviour and implied meanings as well as you all claim supposed to protect himself in these situations?

Suppose I personally do not want to be the subject of a gay man's personal desires for fear it may turn out to be something more threatening than that. Is this homophobic?
Is Protecting my physical health, sexual preferences & other such issues not something I need to be cautious about?

I already stated many times on these forums I am not sure of anything. This applies to everything including my sexual preferences. What if i like being straight snd would like to protect the position I am most happy to be in, regardless of it being an illusion or not?

Do I not have the right to protect my current stance in life until such time as i see fit to change that stance?
Asking someone to desist from any homosexual comments towards me or anything closely resembling it is my right and even if it wasn't my right it's a strong desire.

How is my desire to protect myself (what you call homophobia) something bad?
Caution is a form of fear just as phobias are a form of fear. They are on opposing sides of the spectrum.

Fear of heights is a good thing, it makes you cautious and reduces the possibility of you endangering your life due to high places. This is good, but what if I feared heights so much I was afraid to stand up? That would be bad.
Fear of drowning stops you from endangering your life due to drowning.
Fear is an evolutionary by product that helps us survive.
It is the first response to the unknown especially when we have a suspicion the unknown has the power to threaten your way of life.
Of course with further investigation and personal observation we may eventually know the true motive of the individual. Just exercise caution. I'm not saying to hit the guy in the face, that isn't exercising caution. That's a spectrum of self defense that is on the other end of the spectrum to blocking I think.

I think phobias are extreme cases of fear.

As with most things in life too much of anything can become harmful.
I think therefore that I am homo-cautious and not homophobic.
There is a difference and they belong on different ends of the spectrum of fear.
Caution is a good thing while phobia is not.

The point and distinction of a phobia is generally the notion of the fear being IRRATIONAL. Not "extreme" it's a matter of irrationality for the basis.

Because this protecting oneself or fear of it threatening to something else doesn't have any rational basis for it.. what would cause that step; why would there be a threat attached.. there doesn't seem to be a rational means for these bits. So yes they would fit under the irrational fear notion of a homophobic response.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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16-03-2016, 12:34 PM (This post was last modified: 16-03-2016 01:29 PM by carol.)
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
(16-03-2016 12:20 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Are you saying that the context in which words are used should never be judged based on their sexual preference?
(16-03-2016 11:48 AM)carol Wrote:  yes.
(16-03-2016 12:20 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If a guy suddenly walks up to me in a club and says "hey juicy i think you are a devil" am I supposed to ignore the possibility that he might be gay and attracted to my devilish nature?
How is someone with Aspergers who does not read social behaviour and implied meanings as well as you all claim supposed to protect himself in these situations?
(16-03-2016 11:48 AM)carol Wrote:  I understand your concern, but their attraction is harmless...how they feel will not hurt you, what they say is usually mostly harmless. Unless someone is physical with you, you are not in danger at all, you do not need to protect yourself.
(16-03-2016 12:20 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Suppose I personally do not want to be the subject of a gay man's personal desires for fear it may turn out to be something more threatening than that. Is this homophobic?
Is Protecting my physical health, sexual preferences & other such issues not something I need to be cautious about?
(16-03-2016 11:48 AM)carol Wrote:  Most people have experienced a situation when they do not want to be the subject of somene else's desires. That is common. There are polite and considerate ways to deal with that. The sensible solution is to have a polite response on hand. I have found it works for men and women most of the time. If they become aggressive, then you have a different issue, not related to sexuality. You do not have to protect your sexual preferences- they are conceptual, not physical.
(16-03-2016 12:20 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I already stated many times on these forums I am not sure of anything. This applies to everything including my sexual preferences. What if i like being straight snd would like to protect the position I am most happy to be in, regardless of it being an illusion or not?
(16-03-2016 11:48 AM)carol Wrote:  I am sorry that you feel not sure of anything. That is why I feel protective of you and want to treat you kindly. But if you are happy and want to stay as you are, you do not have to shut out everything. You will remain you. People can chose to live as they want to. For some people, their sexuality can be fluid- even if you decide you were sexually fluid, you can still stay just as you are. You have a family and you love them. Stay as you are most happy. Sex is just sex. People are complex. You do not ever have to change your behavior just because have learned that you have a specific sexual desire.
Of course you have the right to react as you wish to. But you have to accept that other people will respond to your reaction. People will respond to your behavior and language. Shane, the wonderful thing about getting rid of fear based reactions is clarity of thought. Hug
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16-03-2016, 12:47 PM
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
(16-03-2016 12:30 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 12:20 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Are you saying that the context in which words are used should never be judged based on their sexual preference?
If a guy suddenly walks up to me in a club and says "hey juicy i think you are a devil" am I supposed to ignore the possibility that he might be gay and attracted to my devilish nature?
How is someone with Aspergers who does not read social behaviour and implied meanings as well as you all claim supposed to protect himself in these situations?

Suppose I personally do not want to be the subject of a gay man's personal desires for fear it may turn out to be something more threatening than that. Is this homophobic?
Is Protecting my physical health, sexual preferences & other such issues not something I need to be cautious about?

I already stated many times on these forums I am not sure of anything. This applies to everything including my sexual preferences. What if i like being straight snd would like to protect the position I am most happy to be in, regardless of it being an illusion or not?

Do I not have the right to protect my current stance in life until such time as i see fit to change that stance?
Asking someone to desist from any homosexual comments towards me or anything closely resembling it is my right and even if it wasn't my right it's a strong desire.

How is my desire to protect myself (what you call homophobia) something bad?
Caution is a form of fear just as phobias are a form of fear. They are on opposing sides of the spectrum.

Fear of heights is a good thing, it makes you cautious and reduces the possibility of you endangering your life due to high places. This is good, but what if I feared heights so much I was afraid to stand up? That would be bad.
Fear of drowning stops you from endangering your life due to drowning.
Fear is an evolutionary by product that helps us survive.
It is the first response to the unknown especially when we have a suspicion the unknown has the power to threaten your way of life.
Of course with further investigation and personal observation we may eventually know the true motive of the individual. Just exercise caution. I'm not saying to hit the guy in the face, that isn't exercising caution. That's a spectrum of self defense that is on the other end of the spectrum to blocking I think.

I think phobias are extreme cases of fear.

As with most things in life too much of anything can become harmful.
I think therefore that I am homo-cautious and not homophobic.
There is a difference and they belong on different ends of the spectrum of fear.
Caution is a good thing while phobia is not.

The point and distinction of a phobia is generally the notion of the fear being IRRATIONAL. Not "extreme" it's a matter of irrationality for the basis.

Because this protecting oneself or fear of it threatening to something else doesn't have any rational basis for it.. what would cause that step; why would there be a threat attached.. there doesn't seem to be a rational means for these bits. So yes they would fit under the irrational fear notion of a homophobic response.
Google:
The Defintion says:
"
noun
an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something."

If you have a different meaning to the word specific only to irrationality then I would like to point out this is not the same meaning I was referring to. We would not be arguing the same topic & I would then have no objections to the word you are arguing against.

My fear is not extreme thus I do not consider it a phobia based on extremism.
Maybe you are right that it is irrational, but how so? Is it only after you know the details of a certain situation you may be able to properly rationalize it?
To state that any and all fear of homosexuality is irrational doesn't seem to be an arguably objective stance.

Therefore I think you cannot label a person as homophobic simply because they have a fear of homosexuality.
It is only a phobia if it is either extreme or irrational, which is only dependent on the situation.

Irrational to me would be if there is absolutely no reason to believe there is reason to fear something based on emperical evidence (sensual perception) in the given situation.
The given situation has a gay guy calling you dear, honey, sweetie repeatedly without any indication that he was gay. Upon further investigation you find out he is gay and thus request that they stop calling you those names regardless of the context. Is this not rational? Or do you have another meaning of the word rational that I am. Of seeing?
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16-03-2016, 12:52 PM
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
(16-03-2016 12:47 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 12:30 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The point and distinction of a phobia is generally the notion of the fear being IRRATIONAL. Not "extreme" it's a matter of irrationality for the basis.

Because this protecting oneself or fear of it threatening to something else doesn't have any rational basis for it.. what would cause that step; why would there be a threat attached.. there doesn't seem to be a rational means for these bits. So yes they would fit under the irrational fear notion of a homophobic response.
Google:
The Defintion says:
"
noun
an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something."

If you have a different meaning to the word specific only to irrationality then I would like to point out this is not the same meaning I was referring to. We would not be arguing the same topic & I would then have no objections to the word you are arguing against.

My fear is not extreme thus I do not consider it a phobia based on extremism.
Maybe you are right that it is irrational, but how so? Is it only after you know the details of a certain situation you may be able to properly rationalize it?
To state that any and all fear of homosexuality is irrational doesn't seem to be an arguably objective stance.

Therefore I think you cannot label a person as homophobic simply because they have a fear of homosexuality.
It is only a phobia if it is either extreme or irrational, which is only dependent on the situation.

Irrational to me would be if there is absolutely no reason to believe there is reason to fear something based on emperical evidence (sensual perception) in the given situation.
The given situation has a gay guy calling you dear, honey, sweetie repeatedly without any indication that he was gay. Upon further investigation you find out he is gay and thus request that they stop calling you those names regardless of the context. Is this not rational? Or do you have another meaning of the word rational that I am. Of seeing?

Are you afraid they would rape you? What exactly are you afraid of?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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16-03-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Homophobic or Homo-Cautious
(16-03-2016 12:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(16-03-2016 12:47 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Google:
The Defintion says:
"
noun
an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something."

If you have a different meaning to the word specific only to irrationality then I would like to point out this is not the same meaning I was referring to. We would not be arguing the same topic & I would then have no objections to the word you are arguing against.

My fear is not extreme thus I do not consider it a phobia based on extremism.
Maybe you are right that it is irrational, but how so? Is it only after you know the details of a certain situation you may be able to properly rationalize it?
To state that any and all fear of homosexuality is irrational doesn't seem to be an arguably objective stance.

Therefore I think you cannot label a person as homophobic simply because they have a fear of homosexuality.
It is only a phobia if it is either extreme or irrational, which is only dependent on the situation.

Irrational to me would be if there is absolutely no reason to believe there is reason to fear something based on emperical evidence (sensual perception) in the given situation.
The given situation has a gay guy calling you dear, honey, sweetie repeatedly without any indication that he was gay. Upon further investigation you find out he is gay and thus request that they stop calling you those names regardless of the context. Is this not rational? Or do you have another meaning of the word rational that I am. Of seeing?

Are you afraid they would rape you? What exactly are you afraid of?
It doesn't have to be rape and why does it matter to you if it is a rational fear to me? Just because someone else doesn't share the same fears that you do does not make a belief irrational now does it? There are many things that make a belief irrational but fear absent any form of extemism doesn't quite cut it (in my opinion)
There are multiple things a person can be afraid of. These are personal and different to every individual and stems from a wide range of things which include physical health, social status, family approval & many more things.
If said individual has reason to believe the current situation can lead to a change in their current way of life which they are not willing to accept at present time, are they not justified in steering clear of such a situation? Of course I'm not saying it has to be in an aggressive way. Every situation has a subtle way of dealing with things to better influence the outcome.

In this case the person was simply asked to desist using such words when interacting its myself. No request was made for them to stop using it on other persons. Failure to comply even though they continue to make themselves a part of my social interaction would result in other methods of protest if the desire to stop remains strong.
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