Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
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17-07-2010, 06:38 AM
 
Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
Is it me or has anyone else noticed that among atheists and those that free themselves from religious dogma that homosexuals are no longer stigmatized as evil, sinful, abnormal, etc., etc. ?

It seems to me the demands of religious doctrines to demonize gays and lesbians (which includes me as a gay man) was the sole lynch pin that enforced the belief that there was something wrong with gay people and their sexuality. I am curious to hear others responses and thoughts regarding their change (if any) in views about homosexuality once they became free thinkers. Anyone?
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17-07-2010, 10:46 AM
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
i think there is alot less homofobia with atheists than believers, because the way of thinking is usually so different. some believers, not all, look at the bible and think gayness is a sin of death. atheists (im not sure but at least most of us) think scientifically. between a straight guy and gay guy, the only difference is sexuality. nothing else, at least nothing wich would make the straight guy more intelligent or something.
the same thing with ''race''. the only difference between a black and a white is the colour of their skin, and maybe some smaller differences with hair and face.

by the way, there was a tear gas attack against a pride march a couple of weeks ago in helsinki. and at the same times some building of SETA was vandalized, windows broken and places were smudged with nazi symbols and stuff like that. the three gas attackers were caught and seems like they were somekinda new-nazis too. pretty rare here.

i would blame religion for homofobia. when people just blindly believe something without questioning it, and their holy book says gays are evil, they dont ask how are they evil or why are they evil, theyre not supposed to know, only god/gods know.

by the way, even though i dont think gayness is a sin, it doesnt mean i would be one. im straight, but if a kid my age would say that theres nothing wrong with gayness, he would be stamped as one.

Correct me when I'm wrong.
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17-07-2010, 12:06 PM
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
Welcome to the forum Lotus View. One heck of a topic to introduce yourself with. You sure know how to make an entrance!! LOL

For me, finding out I was an atheist didn't really change my views on homosexuality. I wasn't raised in a strict religous home, and was always taught not only to accept peoples differences, but to embrace them as the things that make us all individuals. It's the same thing I teach my own kids. I do agree that there is a correlation between atheism and accepting homosexuality. Partly because homosexuality being a sin is a religous teaching, and partly because it is common for an atheist to think rationally, and so less likely to fear/shun/dislike something that isn't understood. (ie. not being gay, it's difficult for one to identify, and in closed minded people that often breeds fear).

To me, it's just one more thing that shows the negative impact religion has on society. Gays are beaten in the streets to this very day in the name of religion. The Westboro Psycotics are a shining example of the extremes people will go to "in the name of god". God hates fags? Not sure what grounds he has to hate gays, but I sure am glad he's no more real than purple unicorns. Now if only people would stop hating each other based on the teachings of the magic sky daddy, they might have the time to stop, think, and realize how absurd their hatred is.

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17-07-2010, 07:55 PM
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
For homosexuality to be a sin, it has to be a choice. Therefore, religions insist that homosexuals are "choosing" to be gay and some may be "infected" and can be "cured". It's pure nonsense - who chooses to be a societal pariah when it's so much easier not to be? Gays have been harassed, stigmatized and flat out persecuted in western and eastern societies for centuries. Who chooses to be treated that way if they have a choice? It's an absurd position and any thinking person has to realize that no one would choose to endure all that, so by process of reason homosexuality has to be something within you. I think as atheists tend to be more logical in their thinking that theists, we tend to view it as just something you are, not something you do.

I'll add to it that, from my perspective, it's none of my business what, or who, you do in the privacy of your own home. If it doesn't raise the price of beer at the pub, what the heck do I care if you're gay or not? Makes no never-mind to me.

I do think that western societies are becoming far more tolerant and accepting of gays (with the Land of the Free sadly lagging behind, but we are slowly getting there). I suspect that the part of the reason it's not such a taboo subject in Europe anymore is Europe, far more then the US, has a long, bloody history religious history and since the end of WWII Europeans have far less tolerance for the orthodoxies that gave them such an appalling history. The US does not have the same long ugly history on this and it will take us longer to mature. It will happen, though. It will just take a little longer here.

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18-07-2010, 09:37 AM
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
Come to Canada, we're cool here, we'll let you get married and we're far less openly religious than, I'm assuming you're in, the states.

As one of our greatest prime ministers, Pierre Elliot Trudeau once said,

"The government has no place in the bedrooms of its citizens".

Which I believe is the best way to look at it. Because, as it has been said time and again, religious dogma is most certainly the reason people have a problem with homosexuality and that problem reaches into the state in many countries. The government has no business telling you whether you can or can't get married based on your sexuality, what they don't seem to realize is that their job is to serve the people, not oppress them...

Religious people you can tell to fuck off if they try to bug you, but the state is always gonna be there... They're the ones I get really mad about when it comes to homosexual equality.

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20-07-2010, 02:04 AM
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
I think you mixed up the reason and the result. non-homophobic view came before atheist view. As young children we can understand the concept of "guys love guys/girls love girls like momy and dady love each other", but the concept of god and its existens is too much metaphysical for understanding (for example- when I was young I imagined god with cloak and bucket head flying in the sky because I couldn't understand without picture it in my head).
So, non-homophobic view can lead to an atheist view- because you don't have a reason to hate gays apart from "god said so" (and for atheist, of course, it isn't a reason)
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20-07-2010, 09:37 AM
 
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
(18-07-2010 09:37 AM)Green Wrote:  Come to Canada, we're cool here, we'll let you get married and we're far less openly religious than, I'm assuming you're in, the states.

As one of our greatest prime ministers, Pierre Elliot Trudeau once said,

"The government has no place in the bedrooms of its citizens".

That is exactly what happened to a friend of mine who met a guy that he liked and really fell in love with who was from Thailand. My friend had a really good high paying job at IBM and traveled to Thailand a lot where he met Kai who is a really nice guy, sweet and soft spoken as well as really cute too haha.

Anyway because there are no rights or laws to allow same sex couples to immigrate to the US like other married couples as try as he might he could not bring Kai to the US as his partner to live.

Long story short my friend quit his job, sold his house and most of his stuff and moved to Canada (Toronto in fact) so he could bring Kai to live with him there as his partner. My friend even went so far as to renounce his American citizenship and become a "true" Canadian.

It's sad that America, supposedly one of the most advanced nations on Earth, is really one of the worst countries behind many others in regards to true rights and freedoms for all citizens not just gays.

Part of that comes from the extent that religious dogma has infiltrated the State despite the principle of a separation between Church and State. If we ever could truly do away with religion we could have a real progressive and enlightened society. Our fore fathers knew that if only our fathers (and sons and everyone else) understood that today.

Then maybe my friend would not have to forsake his country just to be happy and I might feel there is actually a place for me as a gay man in my own country as well. ~

LV
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20-07-2010, 01:05 PM
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
Well I never really met a gay person in real life, or if I have I was unaware. Where I live (i.e Romania), gay people aren't very visible, and this is mostly because there are many Orthodox believers who live 'by the book' and who think homosexuality is an inconceivable abomination. A few months ago there was a group on facebook calling upon Romanians of Orthodox religion to oppose the 'shameless orgy of sodomy' (i.e. the organization of a gay pride parade here). What the heads of the church preach with respect to homosexuality is appaling. I once attended a sort of sermon when the priest said that married couples divorce because 'they throw pagan wedding parties with music and drinking, and they invite gay people to their wedding, and whatever they invest the gifts they receive from these filthy sinners in is doomed to fail' (trust me, that exactly what he said). I felt disgusted by what I heard, and more so when seeing the rest of the audience (mostly bigoted old ladies) trembling at the idea of homosexuality, and praying god to deliver them from the 'evil one'.

Romanians tend to be very close-minded about homosexuality, and I was surprised to see that even some of those who are not religious are very homophobic. But I guess our backward mentality is to blame for it, or the fact some people feel threatened by homosexuals (couldn't tell why, though, it's just one of those irrational fears that persist even when proven wrong by reality). I kind of used to feel like that too, back when I was still religious. I believed homosexuality was a sin, or an illness, a deviance from the norm, at any rate. After having lost my religious belief, I just came to accept the fact that some people are gay and that one's sexual orientation doesn't really matter, and that everyone is entitled to do whatever like in their private lives, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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21-07-2010, 11:43 PM
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
I can't really tell you about any moral shift I've had. I was brought up in an atheistic house hold that was always open minded. I've never been brainwashed to believe gays are evil. My mother no commented on gays one ways or another, but she always taught a general tolerance. So, when I was first introduced to the idea, it was nothing. It seemed obvious even, that a man could love another man.

One thing that I do notice when it comes to homosexuality and raising children, is that a lot of parents, usually the more conservative ones, don't like to tell their children about gay people. They put it off, and group it into the general sex talk. Honestly, I think that treating homosexuality as a taboo like that only does harm. It tells children that there is something wrong. The homophobia out there is always disturbing me, and tolerance it winning out. Still, I was talking about gays in the military(horrifying, I know) in a different forum a few months ago. It was mostly populated by Jesus nuts. Still, I suggested that radical idea that maybe letting gay people in the military wouldn't cause America to explode. I got this as a response.
Quote:I don't mean to be rude, but, I do believe homosexuality is more of a perversion than a choice.
Reason being is because:

- An article in the Washington Times stated the following: "In "The Male Couple," published in 1984, authors David P. McWhirter and Andrew M. Mattison report that in a study of 156 males in homosexual relationships lasting anywhere from one to 37 years, all couples with relationships more than five years had incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity. Meaning that each and EVERY homosexual 'relationship' included cheating, and sexual behavior outside of marriage.

- Another study from the Journal of Sex Research surveyed 2,583 homosexuals. Only 2.7% of them said they had sex with one partner and actually had converted back to being straight because they said they made a bad decision.

- Animals as in primal beasts like monkeys, dogs, and other species that run off of instinct have sex with same gender animals to 'get off'. In other words, if us, as an intelligent life form created by God, are doing just the same, does that make us any different from the stupid animals around us?

- Most pedophiles (Sexual perverts of little children) ages 30 and up that have been caught in an act of rape and sent to jail have been caught in a homosexual act. Again, their reason was to 'get off'.

- Genetics: the view that a gene triggers homosexuality. However, this view has several problems. First, the gene has not been identified, so this view is not science, but mere speculation. Secondly, statistical studies give strong evidence that homosexuality is not caused by genetics, but is influenced by environment. For example, research has shown that adoptive brothers are more likely to both be homosexuals than the biological brothers, who share half their genes.

-Recent studies indicate that homosexuals have a substantially greater risk of suffering from a psychiatric problems (suicide, depression, bulimia, antisocial personality disorder, and substance abuse). However, research has only proven correllation, not causation. Many studies caution that social stigma may be to blame for such psychiatric problems.

I could go on and on. But, do you really want to protect people that have surrendered to animalistic desires; let alone let these people in the armed forces if they have mental issues?

Anyways, I'm sorry if I offended a lot of you by using such harsh terms. But, facts are facts, right?

Really, it disturbed me. Even when I read it today, it leaves a pit in my stomach.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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22-07-2010, 03:48 AM
 
RE: Homosexuality no longer a 'sin'
My childhood was in the bad old days of the 1970's in the UK - what would these days be considered racism, sexism and homophobia, whilst not exactly rampant were certainly tolerated back then. In my experience, most western cultures have moved on since then - and perhaps it's the 'dyed in the wool' theist community that's left living in the past? I don't think that religion is the ONLY cause of homophobia, however, it really can't escape it in it's theology. My GF is a born again christian and when we first met I asked her about her thoughts on homosexuality (my sister was in a gay relationship at the time). She (my GF) said she didn't have a problem with it... then after a pause she added "But as a Christian, I have to be against it". That was many years ago, and she doesn't think like that anymore (she knows I would never wear it lol). Over the years I have conversationally demonstrated to her that religious morality is bollocks and that we all have a shared (evolved) morality. Religion and other hard line philosophies are guaranteed to skew that morality...

The interesting thing is that when I realised that I had always been atheist (and not simply agnostic) I found myself being much more outraged by prejudice of all forms. And much more outspoken in my outrage. Being a believer in freedom of thought and speech, I will defend anyone's right to be as sexist, racist and homophobic as they feel they need to be. However, I will also defend my right to call them a sexist, racist, homophobic prick in no uncertain terms!
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