Honest questions for Kingschosen
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24-01-2012, 11:11 AM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(24-01-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  2) They were both literal people; ...

How did you determine that again? I'm sorry but I am somehow missing this key point.

(24-01-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  ... however, they were used in the creation story as a model or archetype for humanity. ... They were not the first physical humans.

I'm all bummed out now. You mean god DIDN'T create "Adam" as the good book says? No Garden of Eden then either? That blows that whole Eve running around happily naked in the forest fantasy I had going.
So, did humans evolve from other forms of life over great lengths of time or did god create the first random nameless homo sapien man by scooping up some dirt and doing the rib thing for his wife?

Ya got me a little confused KC. You can't have it both ways.
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24-01-2012, 11:26 AM
 
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(24-01-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  6) Not sure what you're asking. Didn't know this was a problem. Explain?

7) Kind of the same as above. What are you asking?

9) Same as #6 and #7.


KC, thanks for the replies.
Not stating them as problems. Just curious if you find these to be historical moments in human history. Like Pearl Harbor, Signing of the Constitution and other factual/historical moments in human history.

In reality, with as megasplintered as christianity is...before i am realy able to have thoughtful discussion with someone, it helps to know what is considered fact or fiction.

No more no less.

D
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24-01-2012, 11:27 AM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
Wait, so he used a rib off of a man.
Didn't ea kill another god and use their blood and body to do the same thing? This story seems awfully familiar!

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/stc/index.htm

Let's see.... In the beginning there was some gods. The earth... and some gods represented each part.

A god gives birth to Marduk and there was light!

Some gods get pissed and get in a fight. Marduk kills one, rips her body in half and made the firmament and splits the ocean and earth so that there's land and sky and separation and all that cool jazz. This is starting to sound familiar....

Marduk seems to be pretty cool with how things are and decides to make a place where they can chill, have cool parties and get drunk. Then he throws some stars in the sky. Cool! (oh yeah, stars were there so they could tell the seasons and navigate! how thoughtful of the gods)

The gods decide to make some pitiful creatures to do their bidding (us), decide they need to kill another god to do it. So they kill a god and use part of him and create mankind.

They all lived happily ever after. The end.

(in all seriousness though it's an entertaining story to read, at least it's 100x longer than genesis and they have some creative stuff in there)

I think i actually read about this on this very forum - i actually read the entire freaking story. Crazy. Sure is long.
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24-01-2012, 11:27 AM
 
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(23-01-2012 08:39 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(23-01-2012 08:30 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'll try and keep them shorter. Hopefully, I'll get to these tomorrow after I finish the rest in the A&T Forum.

Wouldn't it be more exciting if it were the T&A Forum instead?

Denicio, I'm with you. Growing up as a fundie, these stories were history. More to the point it was HIStory. It wasn't until I started taking a more liberal approach to scripture (like KC), that I finally began the road out of the slavery of Christianity and into the fresh freedom of reality.

Hey X-Man. I'd forgotten about that whole History is HIS-story crap. How cheezy is that? Blah!
And i feel exactly the same way. Christianity is slavery of the mind, pure and simple.

D
(24-01-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  5) What I said here:
I’ve read the story about the Hyksos (sp?). It seems fairly inconclusive and dozen’t explain everything that happened. They also say that Rameses II would have NEVER let the exodus happen because of how prideful he was. If the events of Exodus are true, then Rameses got completely owned by God... humiliated. There was nothing he could do and all his efforts were in vain. Because of his pride, and “god-king” stature, he could have easily erased this from Egyptian history.

The Exodus story has the Pharaoh at a huge disadvantage, don't you think? Regardless of how prideful the guy was....it clearly states he was driving the state of Israel under the influence of god! (Hardened his heart). SO even if the Pharaoh had a shining moment of clarity, he was unable to make a moral decision for his nation.
As for erasing history, not so easy. You had EVERY animal destroyed, first born slain and the army wiped out. For it not to be mentioned in any history is simply odd. As well as the lack of physical archaeological evidence.

D
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24-01-2012, 11:39 AM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(24-01-2012 11:11 AM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  How did you determine that again? I'm sorry but I am somehow missing this key point.

The language and writing style shifts dramatically from the creation account to Genesis history. Since, Adam is traced in Hebrew genealogy theologians who support an allegorical creation account state that Adam was used as an archetype.

Quote:I'm all bummed out now. You mean god DIDN'T create "Adam" as the good book says? No Garden of Eden then either? That blows that whole Eve running around happily naked in the forest fantasy I had going.
So, did humans evolve from other forms of life over great lengths of time or did god create the first random nameless homo sapien man by scooping up some dirt and doing the rib thing for his wife?

Yes, humans evolved as described by science. The creation account explains the covenant that God made with humanity when He decided to impart His image upon them. The cosmological account in Genesis explains to the Hebrews in a way that they can understand, the greatness of God and His covenant He made with humanity. The Hebrews used the character of Adam because that was their understand of "beginnings".

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24-01-2012, 11:41 AM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(24-01-2012 11:26 AM)Denicio Wrote:  Not stating them as problems. Just curious if you find these to be historical moments in human history. Like Pearl Harbor, Signing of the Constitution and other factual/historical moments in human history.

In reality, with as megasplintered as christianity is...before i am realy able to have thoughtful discussion with someone, it helps to know what is considered fact or fiction.

No more no less.

D

KC's answers won't help you with that - as he says, they are his views and not necessarily shared by anyone else.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-01-2012, 11:41 AM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2012 11:43 AM by kingschosen.)
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(24-01-2012 11:26 AM)Denicio Wrote:  
(24-01-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  6) Not sure what you're asking. Didn't know this was a problem. Explain?

7) Kind of the same as above. What are you asking?

9) Same as #6 and #7.


KC, thanks for the replies.
Not stating them as problems. Just curious if you find these to be historical moments in human history. Like Pearl Harbor, Signing of the Constitution and other factual/historical moments in human history.

In reality, with as megasplintered as christianity is...before i am realy able to have thoughtful discussion with someone, it helps to know what is considered fact or fiction.

No more no less.

D

Ahhh ok. Then yes, literal, but to be honest, I haven't delved that deeply into them. I'm still fairly new to this "Christian" thing.
(24-01-2012 11:27 AM)Denicio Wrote:  The Exodus story has the Pharaoh at a huge disadvantage, don't you think? Regardless of how prideful the guy was....it clearly states he was driving the state of Israel under the influence of god! (Hardened his heart). SO even if the Pharaoh had a shining moment of clarity, he was unable to make a moral decision for his nation.
As for erasing history, not so easy. You had EVERY animal destroyed, first born slain and the army wiped out. For it not to be mentioned in any history is simply odd. As well as the lack of physical archaeological evidence.

D

Fair enough. I'll look into it more, and I'll see what I can answer.

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24-01-2012, 11:58 AM
 
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(24-01-2012 11:41 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(24-01-2012 11:26 AM)Denicio Wrote:  
(24-01-2012 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  6) Not sure what you're asking. Didn't know this was a problem. Explain?

7) Kind of the same as above. What are you asking?

9) Same as #6 and #7.


KC, thanks for the replies.
Not stating them as problems. Just curious if you find these to be historical moments in human history. Like Pearl Harbor, Signing of the Constitution and other factual/historical moments in human history.

In reality, with as megasplintered as Christianity is...before i am realy able to have thoughtful discussion with someone, it helps to know what is considered fact or fiction.

No more no less.

D

Ahhh ok. Then yes, literal, but to be honest, I haven't delved that deeply into them. I'm still fairly new to this "Christian" thing.
(24-01-2012 11:27 AM)Denicio Wrote:  The Exodus story has the Pharaoh at a huge disadvantage, don't you think? Regardless of how prideful the guy was....it clearly states he was driving the state of Israel under the influence of god! (Hardened his heart). SO even if the Pharaoh had a shining moment of clarity, he was unable to make a moral decision for his nation.
As for erasing history, not so easy. You had EVERY animal destroyed, first born slain and the army wiped out. For it not to be mentioned in any history is simply odd. As well as the lack of physical archaeological evidence.

D

Fair enough. I'll look into it more, and I'll see what I can answer.

And again, on the Pharaoh thing, regardless of WHO Pharaoh is (prideful, arrogant, diva)...if the OT account, in ANY translation, shows that God 'hardened his heart' then it clearly shows that Pharaoh was UNABLE to choose.

With my recent 'Eyes Wide Open' re read of the bible, i am seeing things in a very different perspective.

To me, the Exodus story shows that the god character is not an honest negotiator, nor is he fair. Pharaoh was simply unable to make his own decisions.

Apart from Pharaoh's inability to exercise his own mind, the evidence left behind of a million people wandering for 40 years is non existent. We are finding dildo's used by Egyptians! Not kidding, you'd think those same dirt diggers would find a grave, a bit of pottery displaced, something...anything! FORGET about Pharaoh erasing history.....the Pharaoh simply could not quietly follow behind a million Jews wandering around and pick up after them.

Thats all for exodus, for now.
(24-01-2012 11:41 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  I'm still fairly new to this "Christian" thing

Thats intresting, so...how long have you been a christian?

D
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24-01-2012, 12:12 PM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
You are aware that I don't believe in freewill and that God chooses and we can't choose, right?

And, I've been a Christian for ~5 years.

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24-01-2012, 12:17 PM
 
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(24-01-2012 12:12 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  You are aware that I don't believe in freewill and that God chooses and we can't choose, right?

And, I've been a Christian for ~5 years.

I applaud you, a christian 5 years and you found your way here and already exhibit signs of liberal christian theology.

Do you have a denomination that you lay claim to? A church type you go to?
Or do you attend one of those new agy non denominational 'we dont know what the fuck we are' type churches? Memphis is littered with those...and they almost ALWAYS end up in a terrible scandal of some sort...must be in the water here.

No free will? Hmm, so simply put..god knows and controls what i am having for lunch today? Or does he hold the remote control for only his followers? Does he control everyone, or just the chosen saved?

You are indeed a perplexing christian, no doubt.

D
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