Honest questions for Kingschosen
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26-01-2012, 08:36 PM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
I went in search of some more discussion on election and found the following at http://www.founders.org representing a Southern Baptist viewpoint. It's the usual incomprehensible bullshit of the religious but here it is anyway:

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All of the present Bible believing preachers and teachers must also believe in election, but most of them do not preach election at all. And those who do, many times, do not teach what the Bible teaches about it.

In this chapter I want to make some general remarks to turn away preconceived prejudice by those who have never gone to the Bible to search what it actually says about the subject.

ELECTION PRECEDES SALVATION.

Election is not salvation but it is unto salvation. ' What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (elect) hath obtained it and the rest were blinded' (Rom. 11:7).

'God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation' (II Thes. 2:13).

Conclusion - if the elect obtain salvation, and since election is to salvation - election must precede salvation.

ELECTION HARMS NO ONE.

Election is not the cause of anyone going to hell, for election is unto salvation. Neither is non-election responsible for the damnation of sinners. Sin is what sends men to hell, and all men are sinners by nature and practice.

It does not follow that because election is unto salvation, that non-election is unto damnation. SIN is the cause of damnation; Election, therefore, harms no one but brings salvation to many.

ELECTION IS THE MOTHER OF A HOLY LIFE.

Election does not prevent the salvation of any one who wants to be saved. But a very important distinction must be made between a mere desire to escape hell and a desire to be saved from sin. The desire to be saved from hell is a natural desire - no one wants to burn. The desire to be saved from sin is a spiritual desire and is a result of the convicting work of the Holy Spirit - God's electing grace is the mother of this desire to be saved from sin.

'. . . he has CHOSEN (elected) us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be HOLY and without blame before him in love:'Eph. 1:4.

Were it not for the redemptive work of Christ, there would be no gospel feast; were it not for the convicting, converting and compelling work of the Holy Spirit there would be no guests. A mere outward invitation brings nobody to the gospel feast.

ELECTION IS THE FOUNDATION OF GRACE.

Electing love belongs to the system of grace. In the epistle of Romans Paul tells us that a remnant among the Jews were saved '. . . according to the election of GRACE. 'The attitude of men toward election is the acid test of their belief in salvation by grace. Those who oppose election cannot consistently claim to believe in salvation by grace. A simple proof is seen in the study of the Creeds of Christendom. The denominations that believe in salvation by works, religious ceremony, or ritual have no place in their confessions for the doctrine of Election. But those who believe in salvation by grace, apart from human merit, have not failed to include the blessed doctrine of election in their written Creeds or Confessions. This is just why we have it as Article Five in our ARTICLES OF FAITH and this is why I am calling it to our attention - we believe in salvation by Sovereign Grace.

THE ELECT ARE MARKED.

The elect are ultimately manifest in repentance and faith and good works. These graces, being God-wrought in man, are not the cause but the evidence of election (See I Thes. 1:3-10; II Peter 1:510).

'Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure'(PhiL 2:12, 13).

'And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?' (Luke 18:7).

The man who does not pray, who does not repent of his sins, trust in the Person and work of Christ, and the man who does not engage in good works has no right to claim that he is one of God's elect.
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26-01-2012, 08:44 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2012 08:46 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(26-01-2012 08:36 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I like how puppets with no control over their lives need to be given orders rather than have their strings pulled =p I've never really seen King explain how he feels there is no free will. He keeps interjecting his non-free will world with free will.

touche

I actually did. But, the question wasn't asked. I think I answered TheBeardedDude. Basically, I said that it's completely liberating to know that I don't have to worry about anything. My trust is in an all powerful God. I'm His elect, so He will do what is best for me.

Semantically speaking, I know the all stupid stuff I do (sic) will never affect my eternity. As imperfect as I am, I would never want to be in control of my life, and I am ecstatic that God is in complete control.
Jeff, the funny part about all of that is that SBs don't even know their bylaws accept election.

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26-01-2012, 08:49 PM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
You do realize though that you are saying that god does that stupid stuff for you. You did not leave the cabinet open while washing dishes and then bump your head into the cabinet door. God was having you do dishes and as he lifted your body to put the dishes in the drying rack he hit your head against the cabinet door. If there is no free will then you have never done a stupid action in your entire life.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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26-01-2012, 08:56 PM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(26-01-2012 08:49 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  You do realize though that you are saying that god does that stupid stuff for you. You did not leave the cabinet open while washing dishes and then bump your head into the cabinet door. God was having you do dishes and as he lifted your body to put the dishes in the drying rack he hit your head against the cabinet door. If there is no free will then you have never done a stupid action in your entire life.

Yep. Human depravity makes me imperfect, therefore, God's predestined plan for me is littered with idiotic things that are because of my imperfect nature. Granted, my imperfect nature is because He created us to be this way in order for Christ's purpose to be served.

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26-01-2012, 09:12 PM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(26-01-2012 08:56 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(26-01-2012 08:49 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  You do realize though that you are saying that god does that stupid stuff for you. You did not leave the cabinet open while washing dishes and then bump your head into the cabinet door. God was having you do dishes and as he lifted your body to put the dishes in the drying rack he hit your head against the cabinet door. If there is no free will then you have never done a stupid action in your entire life.

Yep. Human depravity makes me imperfect, therefore, God's predestined plan for me is littered with idiotic things that are because of my imperfect nature. Granted, my imperfect nature is because He created us to be this way in order for Christ's purpose to be served.

Oh, so you really mean the "for Christ Sake" thing.
Extra weird.
I love that whole idea. You bump your knee on the corner of a desk and exclaim "for Christ Sake!" because it was caused by god and all that pain and glory is in praise of god!
Oh for Christ Sake, seriously?
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26-01-2012, 09:24 PM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
So your quest for knowledge has a point in what way then? Since obviously god has determined your search from point to point throughout all the paths you'll lead why are you seriously asking whether something is good or not? (because go wants me to.)

answered for you cause it's a bit redundant =p But in case you noticed I'm asking because of how redundant it is.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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26-01-2012, 09:34 PM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(26-01-2012 09:24 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  So your quest for knowledge has a point in what way then? Since obviously god has determined your search from point to point throughout all the paths you'll lead why are you seriously asking whether something is good or not? (because go wants me to.)

answered for you cause it's a bit redundant =p But in case you noticed I'm asking because of how redundant it is.

Because I really don't have a choice in my quest for knowledge Smile

God has predestined me this way and has a purpose for it. I could not stop searching if I wanted to.

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26-01-2012, 09:56 PM (This post was last modified: 26-01-2012 10:06 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(26-01-2012 08:44 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Basically, I said that it's completely liberating to know that I don't have to worry about anything. My trust is in an all powerful God. I'm His elect, so He will do what is best for me.

... it's completely liberating to know that I don't have to worry about anything. My trust is in my inevitable expiration. I'm no one's elect, so I will do what is best for me.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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27-01-2012, 12:07 AM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(26-01-2012 09:56 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm no one's elect, so I will do what is best for me.

I'd elect you Girly. You can't possibly fuck things up more Smile And you might do something to make everything slightly less fucked...

Actually that's a good argument for electing anyone Tongue Except some people push the boundaries of the possible...
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27-01-2012, 08:50 AM
RE: Honest questions for Kingschosen
(26-01-2012 09:34 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(26-01-2012 09:24 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  So your quest for knowledge has a point in what way then? Since obviously god has determined your search from point to point throughout all the paths you'll lead why are you seriously asking whether something is good or not? (because go wants me to.)

answered for you cause it's a bit redundant =p But in case you noticed I'm asking because of how redundant it is.

Because I really don't have a choice in my quest for knowledge Smile

God has predestined me this way and has a purpose for it. I could not stop searching if I wanted to.

I am predestined to rid the world of people who believe in predestination. God told me.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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