Honor Killing
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04-08-2017, 02:04 PM
RE: Honor Killing
(04-08-2017 01:48 PM)Reducetarian Wrote:  That said, I've always thought of honour killing (as described above) as associated with a highly misogynistic culture, rather than any particular religion.

Thumbsup Exactly. Just like "female circumcision", "honor killing" looks like it comes from old tribal customs that almost always predate the religion. That would also include those "tribal counsels" that punish a rapist by having a close female relative raped, and doing nothing at all to the guilty person. I'm no expert, by any means, but I haven't found any justification for any of this in religious texts. So why do we (as in USA/media/politicians) keep attributing it to a particular religious belief? And why do we dismiss any home-grown instances as either cult belief or simple domestic violence?
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04-08-2017, 03:19 PM
RE: Honor Killing
(03-08-2017 10:33 PM)Mr. Slave Wrote:  As a former Muslim I find it astonishing anybody keeps associating honor killing with Muslims. It primarily occurs in desi cultures and is a very Hindu thing to do. Going up and down Sahih Bukhari or any of the Kutub al-Sittah you will find no mentioning of honor killing.

What percentage of worldwide honor killings in the last, say, five years, do you estimate were committed by Muslims? Your best guess, of course, I realize we have imperfect stats for this kind of thing but as a former Muslim you may have some special insight.
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04-08-2017, 06:09 PM
RE: Honor Killing
Personnaly, I do think that the accusation of ''Honor Killing'' Vs domestic violence killings has a certain racist biais. If you look at what honor killing means in a broad definition, it's the murder of someone in an attempt to not be shamed, or avenge the shame, by that person (which is even worse under that world view). In other words, under a very strict definition of the term, almost all cases of domestic violence who turned to murder could be qualified of ''Honor Killing'' as long as there is an element of vengeance or jealousy involved. This is why I don't like the label. It doesn't mean much and is too easy to abuse. ''Honor Killings'' are extreme cases of domestic violence and should be treated like any other type of extreme cases of domestic violence. Their roots are extremely similar.

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04-08-2017, 07:12 PM
RE: Honor Killing
(04-08-2017 06:09 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Personnaly, I do think that the accusation of ''Honor Killing'' Vs domestic violence killings has a certain racist biais. If you look at what honor killing means in a broad definition, it's the murder of someone in an attempt to not be shamed, or avenge the shame, by that person (which is even worse under that world view). In other words, under a very strict definition of the term, almost all cases of domestic violence who turned to murder could be qualified of ''Honor Killing'' as long as there is an element of vengeance or jealousy involved. This is why I don't like the label. It doesn't mean much and is too easy to abuse. ''Honor Killings'' are extreme cases of domestic violence and should be treated like any other type of extreme cases of domestic violence. Their roots are extremely similar.

I agree. If men get killed by women neither the term "Honor Killing" or even "domestic violence" get used in western courts. It is simply charged as an act of passion.

But even between men, violence between men seems to be far more accepted when it should not be. Even in mundane situations like a bar fight or over a sporting event.

There is a PSA nationally here in America basically saying "don't hit women".

I agree, but why is it ok for men to hit other men because I don't think even that is ok.

If you have a dispute yell at best, but outside that seek a neutral party such as law enforcement or a court.

Getting your feelings hurt does not matter, if a women does it to a man, or a man does it to a women, or a man does it to a man. Getting your ego bruised never gives the other party the right to assault you, much less murder you.

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05-08-2017, 04:12 AM
RE: Honor Killing
(03-08-2017 10:33 PM)Mr. Slave Wrote:  As a former Muslim I find it astonishing anybody keeps associating honor killing with Muslims...

"The most frequently quoted figure published by the United Nations in 2000 is an estimate of 5,000 killings worldwide each year, most of them in Islamic regions of South Asia, North Africa and the Middle East."

USA TODAY, 9 June 2016

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05-08-2017, 05:45 AM
RE: Honor Killing
(05-08-2017 04:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(03-08-2017 10:33 PM)Mr. Slave Wrote:  As a former Muslim I find it astonishing anybody keeps associating honor killing with Muslims...

"The most frequently quoted figure published by the United Nations in 2000 is an estimate of 5,000 killings worldwide each year, most of them in Islamic regions of South Asia, North Africa and the Middle East."

USA TODAY, 9 June 2016

And? They still don't own a patent on sexism nor did they invent it.

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05-08-2017, 07:53 AM
RE: Honor Killing
(04-08-2017 06:09 PM)epronovost Wrote:  Personnaly, I do think that the accusation of ''Honor Killing'' Vs domestic violence killings has a certain racist biais. If you look at what honor killing means in a broad definition, it's the murder of someone in an attempt to not be shamed, or avenge the shame, by that person (which is even worse under that world view). In other words, under a very strict definition of the term, almost all cases of domestic violence who turned to murder could be qualified of ''Honor Killing'' as long as there is an element of vengeance or jealousy involved. This is why I don't like the label. It doesn't mean much and is too easy to abuse. ''Honor Killings'' are extreme cases of domestic violence and should be treated like any other type of extreme cases of domestic violence. Their roots are extremely similar.

Any description of something can be looked at as fitting into a broader definition. Sometimes that helps us understand it better and sometimes it clouds and confuses our understanding, whether it is done on purpose or accidentally. “Honor Killing” has a certain meaning and context that, of course, has overlapping similarities with other killings- both involve human beings, guns, and/or sharp objects- but is certainly different enough, peculiar enough, culturally-specific enough, and religiously-inspired enough to warrant that specificity if we want to understand it. Is it really necessary to spell out how domestic violence is different from honor killings?

Mixing these kinds of terms and ending up with“honor killings” being an umbrella term for any kind of familial killing does allow us to do one thing though: it allows us to avoid using the “M” word, which seems to be causing a lot of sphincters to tighten up on this thread. “Hey, everybody does it, don't be racist and single out one group!” Murdering or arranging for your child to be murdered is a despicable behavior that no western culture understands let alone supports but does clearly have support in some Islamic and Hindu-dominated areas of the world.

JERRY'S DAILY DISCLAIMER!!! JERRY DOESN'T THINK EVERY MUSLIM IS AN HONOR KILLER. JERRY THINKS MOST MUSLIMS DISAPPROVE OF HONOR KILLING.

And I do agree with you that these crimes should be treated like any other type of crime, if by that you just meant LEGALLY. Legally, murder is murder and the perps should be punished. Conceptually, though, this honor killing shit is just a different breed of cat.
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06-08-2017, 07:32 AM
RE: Honor Killing
(05-08-2017 05:45 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 04:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:  "The most frequently quoted figure published by the United Nations in 2000 is an estimate of 5,000 killings worldwide each year, most of them in Islamic regions of South Asia, North Africa and the Middle East."

USA TODAY, 9 June 2016

And? They still don't own a patent on sexism nor did they invent it.

Can you cite some of the so-called honour killings that've been carried out by Catholics, Jews, Buddhists, or Anglicans this year in the US Brian? As far as I can tell, the vast majority of female honour killings, stonings and floggings have been under the tenets of Islam—and often for such minor infractions as driving a car, premarital sex, consuming intoxicants, blasphemy, and even for rape committed against innocent women.

At any rate, the argument really isn't about sexism in the generally understood Western, first-world sense, but rather in the state-sanctioned, dark Ages physical brutality of the current Islamic third world.

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06-08-2017, 07:45 AM
RE: Honor Killing
(05-08-2017 07:53 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  ... JERRY DOESN'T THINK EVERY MUSLIM IS AN HONOR KILLER. JERRY THINKS MOST MUSLIMS DISAPPROVE OF HONOR KILLING.

Jerry is wrong then.

Survey finds deeply regressive views of women among large majorities of Muslim men.

"A large-scale survey of views in Egypt, Lebanon, Morocco and Palestine has reported extensive anti-women views and widespread tolerance of domestic violence...

Unsurprisingly their data found that clear majorities of men in these overwhelmingly Muslim-majority countries held anti-women views, and had deeply regressive opinions about the role of women in society...

The report, produced by International Men and Gender Equality Survey (IMAGES) found that "The majority of Egyptian men consider it their duty to protect the honour of women and girls in their family, and nearly three-fifths agree with honour killing in some circumstances. More than 90% of men saw male honour as directly contingent on their female relatives' dress and behaviour"...

62% of Moroccan men said "a woman should tolerate violence to keep the family together", and 38% agreed that "there are times when a woman deserves to be beaten".

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06-08-2017, 12:17 PM
RE: Honor Killing
(06-08-2017 07:45 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 07:53 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  ... JERRY DOESN'T THINK EVERY MUSLIM IS AN HONOR KILLER. JERRY THINKS MOST MUSLIMS DISAPPROVE OF HONOR KILLING.

Jerry is wrong then.

Survey finds deeply regressive views of women among large majorities of Muslim men.

"A large-scale survey of views in Egypt, Lebanon, Morocco and Palestine has reported extensive anti-women views and widespread tolerance of domestic violence...

Yeah, but they only asked men from those four countries. Wait til the results come in from progressive, enlightened nations like Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, and Pakistan. Yes
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