How Do You Define a Good Person?
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28-07-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
(28-07-2014 12:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  Wrong. It is claimed by many moral philosophers.
That is law, not morality. They are most certainly not one and the same.
What has science got to do with it?
They have made a value judgement based on their rules having been violated.
But morality is.
It cannot possibly be objective. There is no morality without society - morality is socially constructed.
The NAP is not objective, it is a statement of a moral stance, not some universal truth.
Morality is technology? Really? Consider
These are not arguments. There are no "becauses" in there.

(28-07-2014 01:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  Subjective does not equate to personal. We don't each get to determine what society's moral code is - societies do that, groups of people do that.
It is subjective because it is constructed, not given. Morality is not 'out there' waiting to be discovered.

Still no argument in there. Groups and societies do pull a lot of things out of their ass, they call it morality, they punish people for it, but it doesn't make them true. And things which are not true, are lies and lies can not be moral.
If morality is real, then it can not be socially constructed, because societies can have opposite rules about the same thing and contradict themselves. Things that contradict themselves can not be real.
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28-07-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
(28-07-2014 11:57 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
Quote:Because if something does not make sense logically, it can't be moral, right?
I certainly don't hold this to be true.
What? You just accepted that illogical things can be moral? All right, I am the king of Gondor and I pronounce legal serfdom of Gondor over you. Now give me your money, or you're a bad person.

(28-07-2014 11:57 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Sure you can make a scenario where that is true. But you could also make scenarios where he drives your car off and leaves it somewhere, or takes any of your possessions in an ad-hoc fashion where he doesn't hold onto them as his afterwards.
It's not me who is creating this scenario. It's the thief. Doesn't matter where he is, because we own our actions and words. Do you understand that?

(28-07-2014 11:57 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  That's fine, but basically you are saying that your morality is that you don't like liars or hypocrites, right? You think that is the true morality?
Yes, that's exactly right. There's a whole logical theory around it, not just lying like with words, but also actions. And by this standard vast majority of our culture is lies and hypocrisy. Even my family. This is why you will never see logical theory of morality in media, it attacks the arbitrary, whimsical power, on which our families and culture is based.
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28-07-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
Luminon it seems like you think of morality as having a single unique definition rather than it being defined by each culture/society.

How do you find it necessary that morality must be unchanging if other socially constructed ideas such as tradition and etiquette can vary from place to place?

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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28-07-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
(28-07-2014 12:17 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(28-07-2014 11:57 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  I certainly don't hold this to be true.
What? You just accepted that illogical things can be moral? All right, I am the king of Gondor and I pronounce legal serfdom of Gondor over you. Now give me your money, or you're a bad person.
I don't understand how morality not being bound by logic means that you have the power to assert a new moral standard at your own personal whim. I'm not saying all or even many morals are illogical, but saying that all morals are logical is a silly claim. I don't consider it logical to give up your own life to save the life of another, in most cases, yet some would consider that the moral course of action. I'm sure others may be able to provide better examples.

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(28-07-2014 11:57 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Sure you can make a scenario where that is true. But you could also make scenarios where he drives your car off and leaves it somewhere, or takes any of your possessions in an ad-hoc fashion where he doesn't hold onto them as his afterwards.
It's not me who is creating this scenario. It's the thief. Doesn't matter where he is, because we own our actions and words. Do you understand that?
You said that by the act of taking something that is yours he believes in personal property. I described a scenario where the thief does not take the "stolen" items as his own personal property. That is all.

Quote:
(28-07-2014 11:57 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  That's fine, but basically you are saying that your morality is that you don't like liars or hypocrites, right? You think that is the true morality?
Yes, that's exactly right. There's a whole logical theory around it, not just lying like with words, but also actions. And by this standard vast majority of our culture is lies and hypocrisy. Even my family. This is why you will never see logical theory of morality in media, it attacks the arbitrary, whimsical power, on which our families and culture is based.
Honestly this just sounds like a self defined morality that you are imposing on the rest of the world.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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28-07-2014, 12:52 PM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
How would I personally define a good person? Someone who is kind and compassionate (to human and animal) Someone who tries to be respectful to people but will also stand up for what they believe in and what they think is right. Someone who is honest as well.
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28-07-2014, 01:11 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2014 01:26 PM by Luminon.)
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
(28-07-2014 12:22 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Luminon it seems like you think of morality as having a single unique definition rather than it being defined by each culture/society.

How do you find it necessary that morality must be unchanging if other socially constructed ideas such as tradition and etiquette can vary from place to place?

Things that really exist don't change that easily. We can know if things exist by two ways, through our mind or by the senses. If a given thing can't be figured out logically or felt by senses, then it's not real. If it's not real, then it can't be moral and we can't punish real people because of that.
For example, state borders. They're just lines on the ground, they don't really exist by reason or senses. We shouldn't punish real people for going back and forth.

This idea is described closer in here, in a podcast dedicated to young people to save them from bad education. I really recommend you listen to this.

(28-07-2014 12:35 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I don't understand how morality not being bound by logic means that you have the power to assert a new moral standard at your own personal whim. I'm not saying all or even many morals are illogical, but saying that all morals are logical is a silly claim. I don't consider it logical to give up your own life to save the life of another, in most cases, yet some would consider that the moral course of action. I'm sure others may be able to provide better examples.
Yes, many people do not understand why morality should be bound in logic. There are reasons for that, firstly, because they are not schooled and trained in logic, which takes years, and secondly, because there have been illogical rules violently forced upon us under the pretense of morality. Parents do that for us since early childhood, unless they are very, very careful, decent and kind people. Most are not and that is a scientific fact. Most families are very violent. Violence breaks our logic and locks it with fear.
Saving someone's life is a very nice and wonderful thing to do and you will feel really bad if you don't, but objective morality says you should not be executed as a criminal or otherwise punished by a central authority if you do not save someone's life. That's what can objectively be said about it.

(28-07-2014 12:35 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  You said that by the act of taking something that is yours he believes in personal property. I described a scenario where the thief does not take the "stolen" items as his own personal property. That is all.
Well then, we'd have a talk, in which I'd explain how the logic goes, regardless of the culture. If the guy can't comprehend logic, he's got greater problems than my property.

(28-07-2014 12:35 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Honestly this just sounds like a self defined morality that you are imposing on the rest of the world.
Well, I'd say everyone has this moral stance. It's not new, it's as old as Socrates, Plato and Aristotle, or the modern western formulations of logic. Everyone says they are honest people, know logic and don't lie.

But the way people lie is through inventing buzzwords which have no meaning but a lot of emotional content and they use these whimsical buzzwords to justify immoral actions. For example, the "law", "constitution", "nation", "tradition", "serving one's country", "peacekeeping", "paying one's fair share", "blood is thicker than water" and so on.
People say murdering is wrong, but they "serve in the army".
People say stealing is bad, but they vote for people who promise to give them someone else's money.
People say violence is bad, but then they assault their own children and call it spanking or "discipline". Parents hit and yell and say hitting and yelling is bad. Parents are fuckin' hypocrites.
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28-07-2014, 09:06 PM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
A humble honest person who treats others as he/she wants to be treated
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29-07-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
I would say a good person is one whose intentions and actions consistently reflect a desire to uphold the well being of others.

I think almost anything else that can be said fits in that definition. For example, honesty. A good person is honest, but being honest is covered in the above definition because it's in the best interest of others. However, sometimes being honest is not in the best interest - for example, when we tell a "white lie" because not knowing the truth might be better for another person in certain instances. In those cases, the good person would tell the "white lie" and sort of be dishonest. So that's also covered in the above definition.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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29-07-2014, 10:41 AM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
That's a tough one. To me, a good person is someone who treats others with kindness and respect simply because they want to, not because they want something in return. I've encountered too many people who befriend others because they want to be rewarded somehow.

"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" --Ellen Ripley
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30-07-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: How Do You Define a Good Person?
(29-07-2014 10:22 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I would say a good person is one whose intentions and actions consistently reflect a desire to uphold the well being of others.

I think almost anything else that can be said fits in that definition. For example, honesty. A good person is honest, but being honest is covered in the above definition because it's in the best interest of others. However, sometimes being honest is not in the best interest - for example, when we tell a "white lie" because not knowing the truth might be better for another person in certain instances. In those cases, the good person would tell the "white lie" and sort of be dishonest. So that's also covered in the above definition.
Disagree with the "white lie". A good person would tell the truth in a compassionate manner. Lying to save feelings may hurt the person worse if someone else tells them the truth after you lied to them. Then they get hurt twice, once for finding out the truth and once for you having lied to them.
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