How I See Christianity
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29-12-2012, 02:29 AM
How I See Christianity
How I see the struggle of mankind in this world in relation to what is claimed in Christianity is bit like what is depicted in this Youtube video.

I'm fully aware that I'm posting this in an Atheist Forum. I'm just sharing something that sort of reflects my views on the matter.
I may not agree with everything that this person believes, but I still resonate with most of the video.




“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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29-12-2012, 02:38 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
By all means Paul, tell me how I am born in sin if Adam and Eve never truly ate that forbidden fruit. Show me how I am a rebel.

I instantly begin to duobt anyone who claims that I was born to be evil or born with a defect that has amazing not shown itself.

I am glad that your back Paul, but I don't want to hear how you see Christianity from anybody else but you.

P.S Vosur and I are still waiting for your arguments for God and the Truth of the Church.

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29-12-2012, 02:48 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2012 02:54 AM by ideasonscribe.)
RE: How I See Christianity
(29-12-2012 02:38 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  By all means Paul, tell me how I am born in sin if Adam and Eve never truly ate that forbidden fruit. Show me how I am a rebel.

I instantly begin to duobt anyone who claims that I was born to be evil or born with a defect that has amazing not shown itself.

I am glad that your back Paul, but I don't want to hear how you see Christianity from anybody else but you.

P.S Vosur and I are still waiting for your arguments for God and the Truth of the Church.

I say we talk about it.

My knowledge of how we are born into rebellion is scarce. I won't be your best contender but I'll give you what I know to the best of my ability.


Alright, so to start off - What do you mean "Adam and Eve never truly ate that forbidden fruit"?
I know I've heard this somewhere, but not sure where. Maybe it was you while we were playing Minecraft lol

EDIT: Also, I am not saying this video is speaking for me. I am saying how I resonate with what is depicted in this video.
Of all of my flaws, my deepest most prevalent flaw would be my ability to accurately communicate my emotions or thoughts. I am an extremely visual person. When I was in College and it was time to do presentations, I would always be ecstatic. I would out-shine anyone with my presentations. I honestly should be making Youtube videos myself - but I just need to motivate myself and stop playing so much Call of Duty Black Ops 2 >_<

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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29-12-2012, 03:01 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2012 03:04 AM by Vosur.)
RE: How I See Christianity
I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm going to do so later on. For now, let me respond to this part of your post.

(29-12-2012 02:48 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Alright, so to start off - What do you mean "Adam and Eve never truly ate that forbidden fruit"?
Based on our scientific knowledge, the theory of evolution to be specific, we can safely rule out the existence of a first man and a first women as they are described in the Genesis account of the Bible. Since Adam and Eve never existed, they never ate from the forbidden fruit, which means that there never was a fall to begin with, meaning that there is no "original sin" to be inherited.

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29-12-2012, 03:09 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(29-12-2012 03:01 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm going to do so later on. For now, let me respond to this part of your post.

(29-12-2012 02:48 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Alright, so to start off - What do you mean "Adam and Eve never truly ate that forbidden fruit"?
Based on our scientific knowledge, the theory of evolution to be specific, we can safely rule out the possibility that a first man and a first women ever existed as described in the Genesis account of the Bible. Since Adam and Eve most probably never existed, they never ate from the forbidden fruit. Since they never ate from the forbidden fruit, there is no fall and no original sin to be inherited.

Ok, I see.

If Evolution is true, then I wouldn't really say that Adam and Eve never existed, but we could say that they never existed as the first man and woman. In a way, I suppose they could just have been the first man and woman of the said story. In that story, they were the choice-makers in deciding to eat the fruit that drove mankind out of perfection. (And it wasn't the fruit, it was the action, just in case any of you "perfectionists" are reading this lol).
The Scriptures are too vague on this, and so I don't rely on just that story in order to understand something about sin.

I'm sure KC would more to say on this than me.
Right now, as far as I can tell, it's not descriptive enough to bring me to a blunt conclusion.

All in all, I agree, Evolution does bring a serious problem to the teaching that Adam and Eve were the first humans.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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29-12-2012, 03:18 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(29-12-2012 03:09 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(29-12-2012 03:01 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm going to do so later on. For now, let me respond to this part of your post.

Based on our scientific knowledge, the theory of evolution to be specific, we can safely rule out the possibility that a first man and a first women ever existed as described in the Genesis account of the Bible. Since Adam and Eve most probably never existed, they never ate from the forbidden fruit. Since they never ate from the forbidden fruit, there is no fall and no original sin to be inherited.

Ok, I see.

If Evolution is true, then I wouldn't really say that Adam and Eve never existed, but we could say that they never existed as the first man and woman. In a way, I suppose they could just have been the first man and woman of the said story. In that story, they were the choice-makers in deciding to eat the fruit that drove mankind out of perfection. (And it wasn't the fruit, it was the action, just in case any of you "perfectionists" are reading this lol).
The Scriptures are too vague on this, and so I don't rely on just that story in order to understand something about sin.

I'm sure KC would more to say on this than me.
Right now, as far as I can tell, it's not descriptive enough to bring me to a blunt conclusion.

All in all, I agree, Evolution does bring a serious problem to the teaching that Adam and Eve were the first humans.
Paul, it would fall upon you to show me how you can believe in a book detailing how man fell from Grace when it got most of the purported "creation" account(s) (there were TWO in the Bible by the way).

tell me Paul how Adam and Eve could have been blamed for that incident. If God truly wanted them NOT to eat it, he wouldn't have put it there. Its like when a kid finds a gun, is it his fault when he hurts/kills himself or others? Did he KNOW that it was lethal? Did he know what was going to happen? Did he fully understand why it was dangerous?

the Genesis account is very immoral in that regard that it throws the responsibility on the humans and none on the God that, if he knew everything, knew they were going to commit the crime and could have stopped it.

Also why should I take the punishment of another persons crime? What person would actually think this moral? I think that mentality is disgusting and is simply primative way to explain pain and suffering.

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29-12-2012, 03:27 AM (This post was last modified: 29-12-2012 03:32 AM by Vosur.)
RE: How I See Christianity
(29-12-2012 03:09 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Ok, I see.

If Evolution is true
Perhaps I am nit-picking at this point, but I think it should be clarified that evolution itself is an observational fact; there is absolutely no dispute about whether or not it happens. A more accurate wording of the argument would be "If the theory of evolution is valid [...]". I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this is what you meant to say.

(29-12-2012 03:09 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  then I wouldn't really say that Adam and Eve never existed, but we could say that they never existed as the first man and woman.
If I'm not mistaken, that's exactly what I said in my last post. Consider

(29-12-2012 03:09 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  In a way, I suppose they could just have been the first man and woman of the said story. In that story, they were the choice-makers in deciding to eat the fruit that drove mankind out of perfection. (And it wasn't the fruit, it was the action, just in case any of you "perfectionists" are reading this lol).
The Scriptures are too vague on this, and so I don't rely on just that story in order to understand something about sin.
To the contrary, I think that the Bible is very clear on this matter. If you wish to take the Genesis account literally, Adam and Eve were created as the first members of the human species, as the first humans to have ever walked on this planet.

(29-12-2012 03:09 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I'm sure KC would more to say on this than me.
I've talked to KC about this before. He thinks that the Genesis account isn't meant to be read literally and as an evolutionary creationist, he doesn't dispute the scientific validity of the theory of evolution. In his view, the origin of original sin is not the fall of Adam and Eve; it was a necessary part of "god's perfect plan" so that Jesus could sacrifice himself for the sake of humanity. It should be noted, however, that this solution only works if you subscribe to a strictly deterministic theology such as Calvinism, which you, as far as I know, don't do.

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29-12-2012, 03:37 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
WTF Paul. Just wake up and go, gee, lemme stick my head in this here shark tank, see what happens? Angel

That Christianity is some bad joss, make you feel all guilty/crazy/stupid, and now you got no head. Laughat

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29-12-2012, 03:46 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(29-12-2012 03:18 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Paul, it would fall upon you to show me how you can believe in a book detailing how man fell from Grace when it got most of the purported "creation" account(s) (there were TWO in the Bible by the way).

I'm guessing you meant to say "When it got most of the purported "creation" account(s) wrong

Before we can go any further, I need to know what these creation accounts were. Right now, I'm thinking about the Genesis account and that's all I can think of right now lol I'm so elementary.

(29-12-2012 03:18 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  tell me Paul how Adam and Eve could have been blamed for that incident. If God truly wanted them NOT to eat it, he wouldn't have put it there. Its like when a kid finds a gun, is it his fault when he hurts/kills himself or others? Did he KNOW that it was lethal? Did he know what was going to happen? Did he fully understand why it was dangerous?

If it's a matter of knowledge, in Genesis 2:17 God tells them:

NASB Wrote:"but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

I don't think them not knowing the consequence was an issue. From the looks of it, it seems that they did it knowingly (albeit after they were allegedly convinced by the snake).

If we're going to say - It's wrong of God to put the Tree there in the first place. Then we are saying that it is best that everything stayed in a state of perfection. So, on your part, I would need to know why that is preferrable from what happened.
It seems that being in a complete state of perfection since birth would mean that you never knew what it was like to have a choice to be imperfect.
In a sense, it seems to be that God put the Tree there in order to give mankind the choice (in the way of a tree) whereas without a choice, we become "perfect" robots.

(29-12-2012 03:18 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  the Genesis account is very immoral in that regard that it throws the responsibility on the humans and none on the God that, if he knew everything, knew they were going to commit the crime and could have stopped it.

I'm quite sure God knew it was going to happen - He isn't God if He doesn't know.
given that He does know what would have happened - His reason behind this should be able to be known somehow.
If He doesn't want us to think He's a jerk for doing this, then there has to be a way we can know that he's not a tyrant.

I want to give this being the benefit of the doubt until I know otherwise. Unlike what many think, the outset that God is an immoral beast is not evidence of His non-existence. Just a reflection of His character. Since I believe His existence is probable, I am guessing that this being has motives that transcend our current knowledge. So to make an absolute decision that God is immoral would be, I believe, naive.


(29-12-2012 03:18 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Also why should I take the punishment of another persons crime? What person would actually think this moral? I think that mentality is disgusting and is simply primative way to explain pain and suffering.

I never saw it like I was taking the punishment of someone elses crimee. I saw it like Adam and Eve represented all of mankind in that we all would have made the same decision given the same exact circumstances.
I could say, I am taking the punishment for something I would do if given the chance.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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29-12-2012, 03:55 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
Oh snap, you fell right into his trap, A2. Now he's got you in a theological discussion. Big Grin

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