How I See Christianity
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04-01-2013, 03:47 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 03:32 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I believe you're missing basically my entire reason for arument in the first place.

I don't argue only the existence of God but also the rationality of certain situations in the hypothetical conclusion that God does exist.
My wife believes in God, but is highly bad at Hypothetical situations. So say I would argue with her about the irrationalities of Moral Absolutes given the hypothetical conclusion that God does not exist and she decided to use your logic - she would shut down and ignore all of my arguments saying "Unfortunately, I cannot agree with you. Unless you demonstrate the nonexistence of the specific god you don't believe in, every argument that relies on the premise it doesn't exist becomes null and void.

Arguing about the properties, attributes, standards and plans of a being whose existence is already established is futile.


So you see, it doesn't work that way.
If you want to ignore any rationality I bring to the table by saying "It's all null and void because we've already established that God does not exist until you prove otherwise. And until you prove otherwise, your other arguments don't mean anything"
Then all we have is disagreement without rational discourse.
But that's where you're mistaken. My arguments neither rely on the premise that god does not exist, nor have I ever made the claim that I have proven god's non-existence. In fact, it would be an argument from ignorance to say that god does not exist until you show me that I'm wrong.

With that said, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you haven't misrepresented my argument (underlined part) on purpose. I didn't suggest that your arguments are null and void because I or anyone else has established god's non-existence, I said that they have no merit because the underlying premise "my version of god exists" is unsubstantiated.

Here is the relevant quote again:
(04-01-2013 02:52 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Unless you demonstrate the existence of the specific god you believe in, every argument that relies on the premise it exists becomes null and void.

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04-01-2013, 03:53 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 03:29 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I'm sorry, but I honestly have no idea what your argument/point is. Do you mind clarifying it for me?

Alright, I'll try to be as simple as I can (Occam's Razor approach lol)
If the "List" of do's and don't's is an accurate list, and provides the best moral standard for the best and most prime conditions for human existence - then is it still just a list? It becomes more of a way of living that humans ought to stand by if they wish to live to the best of our possible capacity.
Or something to that effect.

Looking at the standards and saying "It's a list" is like looking at the mona lisa and saying "it's just a painting". It may just be a painting, but there's a lot of history to it.

I'm bad at explaining lol

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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04-01-2013, 04:04 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 04:08 AM by Vosur.)
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 03:40 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Anyways, I actually wouldn't say that I am certain that a devine moral standard exists as much as I would say that I am not completely certain that a devine being exists. And I guess I would examine this standard in the same way we examine any other moral standard. Of course, morals are non-sentient and therefore cannot being examined emperically. We would have to find more philosophical ways of examining them I suppose.
The difference between religious and secular moral standards is that one makes a claim of absoluteness while the other one doesn't. If you can only examine the former using the same subjective methods that are being used for the latter, it can no longer be considered absolute. It's the reason why there are dozens of different religions with hundreds, sometimes even thousands of different denominations, each of which claims to know the "true" absolute moral standard of god.

(04-01-2013 02:52 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Right, and how else might someone teach a moral standard? I think we may end up running in circles with this one if we're not understanding each other lol
Agreed.

Edit: I see that you have clarified your position per my request, thanks.

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04-01-2013, 04:06 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 03:53 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  If the "List" of do's and don't's is an accurate list, and provides the best moral standard for the best and most prime conditions for human existence [...]
Let me stop you right there. Do you honestly think that the Bible's moral teachings are both accurate and the best moral standard for the best and most prime conditions for human existence? If so, why?

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04-01-2013, 04:08 AM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2013 04:40 AM by ideasonscribe.)
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 03:47 AM)Vosur Wrote:  But that's where you're mistaken. My arguments neither rely on the premise that god does not exist, nor have I ever made the claim that I have proven god's non-existence. In fact, it would be an argument from ignorance to say that god does not exist until you show me that I'm wrong.

With that said, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you haven't misrepresented my argument (underlined part) on purpose. I didn't suggest that your arguments are null and void because I or anyone else has established god's non-existence, I said that they have no merit because the underlying premise "my version of god exists" is unsubstantiated.

Here is the relevant quote again:
(04-01-2013 02:52 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Unless you demonstrate the existence of the specific god you believe in, every argument that relies on the premise it exists becomes null and void.

It's easy for me to mistakely misrepresent someone, especially in forums or text messages.
I repeatedly have to reread over peoples statements in order to understand them fully.
Anyways, I believe I understand what you're saying - so I'll continue on that.

Basically, what I think you're saying is that until I prove Gods existence, anything else (with a premise concluding his existence) is without value or meaning (null and void).

What I'm trying to say is that I can still rationalize through premise's to find their validity or logic. It's a way of being Hypothetical to give the claim it's fair trial.

I am less inclined to believe that God does not exist until otherwise proven to exist. More inclined to find the more probable conclusion and lean on that until a different conclusion is revealed to be more probable.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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04-01-2013, 05:28 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 02:14 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(04-01-2013 01:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  So... babies should go to hell because God's an alien ? About right ?

IOW God's moral standard is so different from humans that just about anything could be immoral according to him. Inc homosexuality, not believing in his existence etc ?

Hard to worship such a being no ?

Again, this is quite the Theological issue in which I am not fully decisive yet.
I'm sort of trying to bring this whole thing to a different level so we can both understand it.
If we keep it at a Theological/denominational level then we'll have Baptists, Methodists, Catholics and Presbyterians arguing with us about interpretation until this Thread is blown away.
I'm simply trying to bring to light the more broad issue of (I guess) sin. Or you could say 'not behaving right'.

I don't believe that God send children to hell if they die. I more favor the idea that after humans have been given a certain amount of time to make a definitive decision, then that's when they are held to a higher standard. Again, that's a Theological issue, and it gets shaky when talking about this with people who already have an issue with the very existence of the being in the first place.


Also, I didn't say God is an Alien - Are you bad with analogies? Not a big fan I guess lol
(Although, in different aspects, we could call God an alien. He is definitely foreign to Humans.. He just doesn't belong to a foreign country or nation.)


Here's something I feel I understand about Gods moral standard -

His standard isn't something to the likes of a list of what we should and should not do. That is more of a naive outlook.

Instead, His standard is that which, if we were to completely and fully adhere to, would be the prime of existence.
Every human being would live fairly and lovingly. Crimes would never happen, life would essentially be perfect in that regard.

Seeing it that way would change my perspective outlook on Gods standard thereby making it easy to "worship" him.

((EDIT: I think Vosur's right, I tend to avoid Theology and such things and try to look at everything from a more 'rational' standpoint'.. thereby making me feel not very religious at all. It's like I'm a "devil's advocate" for Atheists lol)
You don't need to bring it down to an understandable level, they're not idiots they get what you're saying. It is YOU who doesn't get what they are saying.

So I will break it down and simplify it for YOU.

A baby is conceived by two adults. These two adults can be almost anyone in almost any situation.
This sperm and egg then develops into a baby completely against this babies will, it's getting developed if it likes it or not.

Are you following so far? So far the baby has done absolutely NOTHING, it has made no choices, all it's done is swim around in the whom getting forced fed food.
Think battery chickens.

Then after 9months this baby is brutally forced out of its little home into this shit hole world.
ALL completely against it's will. It has done NOTHING.

Yet you say that this baby is born of sin?
How is that moral?
To ANY moral standard. This baby has done absolutely NOTHING.
It's not like say a murderer who actively decides to murder someone.
This baby hasn't actively decided to be born.

And so you give this really really shit metaphor of the alien having a moral that it's morally bad to be born a human as opposed to an alien.
This is completely irrelevant and doesn't answer the question at all.
That might be their moral, but how is that at all a good moral?

The only morals that matter is the human moral because that is the one that is the one we give ourselves and the one we live with.
So compared to the only moral standard that MATTERS, how is it morally good to be considered evil for doing nothing?


Morals are NOT divine. They are NOT god made. That is a load of bullshit that's just piled ontop of the bullshit that is any religion.

Morals are created by humans as a way of coexisting and survival.
The purpose of any living thing is to survive. Evolution (which is true btw) is proof of that. If the goal wasn't to survive then why natural selection?? Why simply not stay as a single cell organism swimming around in a primordial oooze? Why? Well I'll tell you. Because you adapt, you out preform the other cells so that you may survive, they do the same. This results in bigger/better/more adapted to the environment/etc.. and a few billion years later you have humans who then halt the progress with this religion BS.

SO, if survival is the meaning of life then morals come in to play when you have multiply humans. These humans could pick up a stone and just club each other to death, but then the species wouldn't last long. So instead you get morals as a sort of ethical law system so that people may coexist.
If said humans then make killing to be immoral then they can co-operate and greatly increase their survival chances.
Then as the group gets bigger and more advanced you can expand this to no stealing etc... until we have what we have today. All effected by many different things through out history.

ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING DIVINE BEING REQUIRED THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

So, I repeat, and not because I don't understand what you are saying but because what you are saying doesn't even come close to answering the question that you can't answer without sounding like a total fucktard, why are babies born of sin?

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04-01-2013, 05:50 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
My apologies if I made anyone feel like I was belittling them.
That was not my intention.

As was stated "I'm sort of trying to bring this whole thing to a different level so we can both understand it."

I consider myself to be on the same level as anyone else here. Maybe I'm a bit less intelligent than many people here, but I don't want anyone to think that I feel I am superior to anyone in any way.

I am on a journey/search for the truth, just as others of you are as well and that's how I see it.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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04-01-2013, 05:52 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 12:37 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(03-01-2013 11:54 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Ok, so let me get this straight. We are all born with a defect that makes us evil or "born in sin"? Correct me if I am wrong, but I was born with no memories of anything. Just the insticts I was born with to suck on things (food) and of course no control of anything. I am pretty certain you and everyone else was born just the same. How the hell can someone that was just born be evil? How can they be anything at all, other than an eating, sleeping, shit machine? Until we are taught by the church (any/every church), to feel dirty. Explain this to me.


Born out of perfection or with the inclination towards a lifestyle or behavior that is not prime.

Not necessarily that we are born "evil" as evil may be interpreted to mean something to the likes of Hitler as much of Society sees him.

Given that there are two moral standards for this situation; ie. a 'Devine' Moral Standard and a Human Moral Standard.
The Devine standard is going to be more Absolute whereas the human moral standard will be relative and changing.

It is not by a human standard that anyone is born with the inclination to misbehave, but perhaps it is different if we put this up against a different standard.


To what devine standard are you referring? The standard of the bible, in which might makes right? God turns people to pillars of salt, nukes an entire city, sends people to hell forever for a finite crime, encourages rape and incest, spreads christianity with a sword and to the victor goes the virgin girls and money? You mean that devine morality? No, your holy book is an evil tool for controling people that don't know any better. We live in a time where there is no excuse for not knowing any better. If you think that the bible is in any way, then please provide us with your address so we can send in the guys with the white outfits and a straight jacket. You know, before you hurt yourself or someone else. Yes we misbehave when we get older. Not only are we programmed by nature to be selfish, but it is the only logical reaction to the fucked up shit hole we are born into. You know who is resonsible for that? I'll tell you. Everyone from every previous generation. Just as we are partly responsible for the world our kids are born into. Decendants of slaves not only owe it to the ancestors of some white people, but also to their own ancestors. It was easy to round them up in africa, because their own people gave them away for profit. We all need to wake the fuck up and turn away from religion, because it is through religion that literally anything can be justified if you are crazy enough.
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04-01-2013, 05:55 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 05:50 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  My apologies if I made anyone feel like I was belittling them.
That was not my intention.

As was stated "I'm sort of trying to bring this whole thing to a different level so we can both understand it."

I consider myself to be on the same level as anyone else here. Maybe I'm a bit less intelligent than many people here, but I don't want anyone to think that I feel I am superior to anyone in any way.

I am on a journey/search for the truth, just as others of you are as well and that's how I see it.


We are not offended because we think you are somehow superior. We think that you believe that you are, which is why we need to put you in your place. By making the statement above, you are pretty much admitting to feeling superior.
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04-01-2013, 05:57 AM
RE: How I See Christianity
(04-01-2013 05:55 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(04-01-2013 05:50 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  My apologies if I made anyone feel like I was belittling them.
That was not my intention.

As was stated "I'm sort of trying to bring this whole thing to a different level so we can both understand it."

I consider myself to be on the same level as anyone else here. Maybe I'm a bit less intelligent than many people here, but I don't want anyone to think that I feel I am superior to anyone in any way.

I am on a journey/search for the truth, just as others of you are as well and that's how I see it.


We are not offended because we think you are somehow superior. We think that you believe that you are, which is why we need to put you in your place. By making the statement above, you are pretty much admitting to feeling superior.


By saying I'm not superior, I'm admitting to the opposite? I don't follow your logic.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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