How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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09-08-2017, 01:29 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Quote:1) I was quoting other Atheists, so what is you problem?
>"Atheists are allowed to agree or disagree on any and every issue."
That is irrelevant. Words mean things, and when someone says:

"I'm not going to love them. You go love them if you want. Don't love them on my behalf. I'll get on with killing them, destroying them, erasing them. And you can love them. But the idea that you ought to love them is not a moral idea at all. It's a wicked idea."

There is no mincing of words there. It is a blatant call for tyranny, authoritarianism, totalitarianism, whatever you want to call it, and death.

Never heard him say that. Didn't know he'd said it.

That's terribly unfortunate, and I disagree with it in its entirety. If you have a video of him saying it or an interview I could listen to, instead of some blogs, that would be swell.

Quote:>"It's not up for discussion"
So much for you being a freethinker.

What does being a freethinker have to do with not wanting to discuss a topic with someone who will justify the killings of his God, but then lambasts atheists as immoral murderers?

Quote:"What other atheists think is a moot point in this regard as well. They're not the ones that are here cherry picking quotes."
Well, as you're an Atheist, what you think must be a moot point. Now please be quiet while the adults talk.

Lookie lookie, the ad hominems are spewing forth. Christ-like indeed.

The key to being a good Christian, is to insult people while you're engaging in debate. Really endears your god to people.

This all while he's cool with God being a mass murderer.

Where's the vomit emoji when you need it.

I'm witnessing that moment where you watch a point go flying over someone's head.

If they're as irked as you say, and on your side, and if Hitchens really said all of these things, that's unfortunate. It would fall under the category of things I vehemently disagree with. I would like to discuss it with them more than you - since they're fellow atheists and you've been defending a flawed objective morality - but they're not posting their writings on this board to be debated. You are.

Again, I'm allowed to vehemently disagree with what Hitchens said, or what your atheist bloggers say, or agree at will.

And what I think is most certainly irrelevant under tons of different circumstances. That's not a bad thing. I'm also allowed to be wrong. I enjoy being wrong (and corrected) as much as I enjoy being right, because I get to learn something in the process. They're both equally exciting prospects to me.

Quote:IOW, sadly, facts don't faze you. A consensus among Atheists doesn't faze you. Well. your opinion doesn't change the facts of what Hitchens said.

You learn something new everyday. Already said that I've never heard or read Hitchens saying anything of the like. If he did, that's sad, and I utterly disagree with it.

For a Christian, you're a bit of a prick aren't you? Your God is in like company.

Quote:How did Christianity "stifled human progress and morality," compared to what Atheists did in the USSR, PRC, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Eastern Europe? Atheists have been strangely quiet on that.Other than claiming "no true Atheist" fallacies.

stifle*

I didn't say Christianity, I said religion. And it has stifled human progress because it does not allow for the evolution of human morality. That is why we have the ridiculous goings on in the Middle East. That is why we still have Christians persecuting homosexuals. It's so plain as day to someone who's not defending an outdated and outmoded ideology.

Certainly religion was useful before people actually knew anything. Now we know a great deal. God has become entirely superfluous. Goddidit, is no longer a necessary explanation for anything. Consequently, religion is no longer of use. It seems to be getting in the way.

It's like a horse drawn carriage. Incredibly useful before the invention of the automobile. Now? Not so useful. If someone had a horse drawn carriage on the freeway, I'd probably honk at them. At the very least, give them a funny look.

I can't deny that atheists have also screwed up and done terrible things in the past. Whether it was out of their atheism, or out of their human fallibility is what I would love to know. Sadly, I don't have access to what their thought patterns were at the time, but I do know this. "Good people do good things, and bad people do bad things, but for good people to do bad things, that takes religion."
-Stephen Weinberg

Can you not see that this is the point people are trying to make here? The Bible has objective rules, supposedly, and not good ones, all throughout both the OT and the NT. Are Christians allowed to question God's rules? If they are. If they are allowed to think that some of the rules he came up with are ridiculous, how then can we call him God?

This is clearly man made nonsense.

You're welcome to respond to me. But you seem like a bit of an ass, so I think I'm gonna put you on ignore.

Good day.

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
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09-08-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Again...it bears repeating, but since when does Hitchens speak for all atheists?


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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09-08-2017, 03:32 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(09-08-2017 05:00 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Hug Shai-

It would seem there is perhapse still a disconnect between what I am meaning , what I am typing and what FarSeeker is interpreting said meaning of said/posted words.... Consider

Hug I sadly think there is, but at least it's not personal? He seems to be doing that to everyone?


(09-08-2017 06:08 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 02:46 PM)unfogged Wrote:  There are many secular charities; atheists don't generally make charity contingent on listening to sermons. It's the religious that use it as a lever.

I just wanted to add as a one off commemt that I personally don't care what motivates people to give to charity as long as little kids and the elderly have their needs met.

I think some religions manipulate people to donate to them for their own missionary work, and that's what I find to be disgusting.

Ditto here. I've donated to and worked with both secular and religious charities. Growing up, my old Baptist church supported an orphanage in Haiti. They built it, literally, from the foundation upwards, working alongside a local pastor. I met him a few times over the years when they brought him to the U.S. to help ask for funding and he was one of those kind and genuine people who just wanted to help others, and man of the utmost courage. During Haiti's last revolution, one of the former orphans held him at gunpoint to steal the money that American Baptists would send to buy the children food. Sure, he raises those kids with a religion, but that's actually not his primary goal, he just doesn't want to see any more children die of malnutrition or preventable diseases, due to the poverty in the country.

I don't presume to speak for both of us (though kinda did in an earlier post, sorry!), but feel like our answer would probably be similar to a question a friend asked recently on Facebook. "If your God was proven false tomorrow, beyond a shadow of a doubt, would you change your actions?" For me at least, the answer was, other than prayer and such, no. Now this leads into the part where I'd think we'd agree; why would it change something like giving to charity or helping out with a group like Habitat for Humanity? Those are things that, yes, they can be influenced by our faiths, but it doesn't mean that faith is the sole driving force behind them. One helps others not for some sort of celestial reward, but because it's the right thing to do.

Also can I just say that I find the nice civil discussion you're having with morondog to be a great way to disprove FarSeeker's statement that atheists don't treat believers with humility well?
(09-08-2017 06:58 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  And sometimes the religious charities are the only game in town. I joined a Christian sponsored emergency relief group where I live and had lessons in hurricane clean up, how to properly chainsaw tree debris, etc. They really stressed that the important thing wasn't helping the people in need in a disaster, but in gaining the opportunity to minister to them about Jesus. And no, I'm not going to go out and start my own charity organization, "Atheists with Chainsaws."

That's truly unfortunate. Sad It reminds me of volunteering at Prison Mass. The church's Cantor and I were both there to celebrate the Mass with the inmates, to remind them there were still people who cared about them on the outside, have conversations with them about whatever (not necessarily religious. One guy actually had bred dogs before he was busted for drugs, and when a volunteer described an issue her dog was having, he told her exactly what was wrong and to tell the vet. He was right and probably saved that dog's life.), etc. We both knew that even little things like using first names instead of numbers was a bit of humanity that the correctional officers didn't give them, but we could. We were both shocked and horrified when it turned out most of the other volunteers were only there to store up good works for Judgement after death.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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09-08-2017, 03:45 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(09-08-2017 03:32 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Also can I just say that I find the nice civil discussion you're having with morondog

Laugh out load I think Aliza is disagreeing with me somewhat violently, for her. Not without cause.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-08-2017, 03:57 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Quote:Also can I just say that I find the nice civil discussion you're having with morondog to be a great way to disprove FarSeeker's statement that atheists don't treat believers with humility well?

Or the fact that I have the utmost respect for Shai because of the graceful way he conducts himself, and didn't even know he was a theist until recently, and that I'm now beginning to think both him and Aliza (though I've engaged with Aliza less) are some of the most rational theists I know, based on their posting.

Still... come to the dark side. Evil_monster We have cookies and lemonade.

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10-08-2017, 05:47 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2017 08:58 PM by FarSeeker.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 06:19 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 03:14 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Facepalm
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is an Atheist using a "Gish Gallop."
Dodgy Such a wonder of hypocrisy it is.

Facepalm
No, that was a theist disagreeing with you.

The first part of your statement is wrong; the second part is as irrelevant as the Gish Gallop, because this has nothing to do with some TV preach or what he said.

This is about the leading Atheists stating, "religious people are my enemy, they are a threat to civilization, it's either them or me, and I'm going to make sure it's Me. And killing them will be a duty and pleasure."

And having the rest of you deny it.
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10-08-2017, 06:02 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Once Upon A Time:

http://www.themythsandhistoryofredhair.c...eresy.html

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10-08-2017, 06:03 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(10-08-2017 05:47 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 06:19 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Facepalm
No, that was a theist disagreeing with you.

The first part of your statement is wrong; the second part is as irrelevant as the Gish Gallop.

Laugh out load

you funny

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10-08-2017, 09:22 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2017 09:28 PM by FarSeeker.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(09-08-2017 03:31 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Again...it bears repeating, but since when does Hitchens speak for all atheists?

IT started from a claim that Hitchens is not a totalitarian.

Since I haven't heard a single one of you condemn his statements, and that several of you have defended him despite his statements. Accusing me of some how misreading "kill."

And when I mention that I am agreeing with the condemnation of TWO other Atheists. I am told vous don't give a damn what other Atheists say, your interpretation is absolutely the only correct one.

Statements that go like, "I don't like what you believe. You are a threat to civilization. I will not breathe the same air as you. I will kill you, and it will be a duty and a pleasure" Those ARE totalitarian in their essence.

And you don't care.
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10-08-2017, 09:46 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(10-08-2017 09:22 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 03:31 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Again...it bears repeating, but since when does Hitchens speak for all atheists?

IT started from a claim that Hitchens is not a totalitarian.

Since I haven't heard a single one of you condemn his statements, and that several of you have defended him despite his statements. Accusing me of some how misreading "kill."

And when I mention that I am agreeing with the condemnation of TWO other Atheists. I am told vous don't give a damn what other Atheists say, your interpretation is absolutely the only correct one.

Statements that go like, "I don't like what you believe. You are a threat to civilization. I will not breathe the same air as you. I will kill you, and it will be a duty and a pleasure" Those ARE totalitarian in their essence.

And you don't care.

What?? What the hell was that?

M'kay, clearly I need to read through the thread, cause that just seemed to come out of left field.
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