How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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11-08-2017, 01:13 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(10-08-2017 09:22 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(09-08-2017 03:31 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Again...it bears repeating, but since when does Hitchens speak for all atheists?

IT started from a claim that Hitchens is not a totalitarian.

Since I haven't heard a single one of you condemn his statements, and that several of you have defended him despite his statements. Accusing me of some how misreading "kill."

And when I mention that I am agreeing with the condemnation of TWO other Atheists. I am told vous don't give a damn what other Atheists say, your interpretation is absolutely the only correct one.

Statements that go like, "I don't like what you believe. You are a threat to civilization. I will not breathe the same air as you. I will kill you, and it will be a duty and a pleasure" Those ARE totalitarian in their essence.

And you don't care.

Unless Hitchens or anyone else has the authority and power to eliminate anyone who didn't agree with him, he was sharing his opinion, regardless of how strong.

Just like you're sharing your opinion of him.

But, why him? Why quote mine him? Why take his words, largely out of context to attack his character?

What have you got against him?

I agree with some of the stuff he said, but I also disagree with a lot too, I don't think he would have cared. He wasn't the leader of atheists.

Trying to lead atheists is like herding cats.

Now, that is something I know about. Tongue


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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11-08-2017, 02:20 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(11-08-2017 11:37 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Typical of Dawkinsists to call failures of our movement saints.
See? See? This is the shit I'm talking about. This faith-blinded fool thinks St Stalin was a failure??? You Harrisians are all the same. Failing to heed the prophets of science. Stumbling around from one junk-science podcast to the next. This is why Science must be purified! Only subscribe to peer-reviewed open-access gold-plated lily-livered journals. Nothing else will do.

Quote:Also there isn't a thing more scientific in world than Marx and his scriptures. Light of Science itself shone upon him when he wrote. Surely even heretic like you can see it. You just close your eyes to the truth cause you want to wallow in sin Wink
Hah. A typical Harrisian insult, and as always completely devoid of even the semblance of truth. All Marx was was a man with a beard, and while everyone knows that that is a necessary condition for good science it is NOT sufficient. Dawkins has a beard too, he just doesn't wear it. And it's more impressive than Marx's. So there.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-08-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(11-08-2017 02:20 PM)morondog Wrote:  See? See? This is the shit I'm talking about. This faith-blinded fool thinks St Stalin was a failure??? You Harrisians are all the same. Failing to heed the prophets of science. Stumbling around from one junk-science podcast to the next. This is why Science must be purified! Only subscribe to peer-reviewed open-access gold-plated lily-livered journals. Nothing else will do.

Saint Stalin? Your blasphemy know no bounds. Highest of comrades, Comrade Lenin (holy are his footfalls) denied him place in atheist pantheon in his last will. And his will is not to be questioned.

As for science - only science worth pursuing is Soviet science. No need for burgeois peer-reviewed journals. Using them is just another sign of Dawkinians decadence and heresy.

Quote:Hah. A typical Harrisian insult, and as always completely devoid of even the semblance of truth. All Marx was was a man with a beard, and while everyone knows that that is a necessary condition for good science it is NOT sufficient. Dawkins has a beard too, he just doesn't wear it. And it's more impressive than Marx's. So there.

In your heart you know that Marx was right. He said that everything will end in communism and what was that USA achieved during Obama rule if not communism? Marx was able to foretold it cause of his discovery of scientific laws of history - it clearly shows who has Lady Science favor and who is but false idol worshipped by heretics.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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13-08-2017, 01:23 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 06:07 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Ah, a "Tu quoque" fallacy.
Did i make a claim? Did i present any premises or conclusions? Right, i didnt. So stop pretending i did.
So, if you think theses things werent mass murder, you surely have a nice rationalisation at hand, do you?
Alternatively if you do think those actions were mass murder, you dont have to give a rationalistation of course.

(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  bla bla bla
Nice sidestepping....but back to my humble requests (based on your claims). in case you forgot what you wrote, please allow me to repeat your claims for you:
FarSeeker Wrote:With Atheism, mass-murder is not immoral, it's just a rational choice
Please give your definition of atheism.
Please show how atheism is related to morality.


(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  3) The Bible explains The Flood and its reason explicitly. I don't need to explain any further to a person who can read: Genesis 6:5.
Nice non-answer. Now lets try an actual answer, shall we?
Was the big flood mass murder? Its a simple "yes/no" question. I am not interested in what the bible or anyone else "thinks" or "reasons", i am interested in what you think: Yes or no? In case of the latter please let me repeat my humble request from my last post: Please explain how the big flood is not mass murder.


(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  The Bible does not say babies, only first born: Exodus 11:5. My brother is a first born and over 50 yrs old. Do try to do a little research before posting about the dogma you've been indoctrinated with.
Ok, let me rephrase my question (as if it would make any difference to the question at hand): Please explain how killing all/every first born in Egypt is not mass murder. Drinking Beverage

(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Canaanites,? see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
Please provide evidence that Canaanites were "thugs".
and while you are at it
please explain how killing all of them according to Deuteronomy 20:16 "...thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" is not mass murder. Drinking Beverage

In the meantime i will be back in my library reading Marx´ "Das Kapital", Maos "Red Bible", Hitlers "Mein Kampf" or some of Pol Pots speeches. You can find me there, if you still have questions regarding my requests. Smartass

Nice sidestepping....but back to my one humble request: are Hitchens' statements the statements of a totalitarianist or not. That is the issue here, not your digression.

jerry mcmasters Wrote:
"I think the rest of us will remember a sensitive and articulate warrior for free speech, free thought, and liberty for all..."

Do the Hitchens quotes I gave sound sensitive, and supportive of "free thought" and liberty?

Atheism - the Theological label for what philosophy labels materialism/naturalism. With the addendum of all serious thoughts that start: "as there is no deity, therefore..."

But you still haven't answered the derivative question: why wasn't Hitchens "GOOD WITHOUT GOD"? Then again, why weren't so many Atheist leaders "GOOD WITHOUT GOD"?
Here's a short list:
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (Hitchens' favorite)
Jozef Stalin
Mao Ze-Dong
Kim II Sung
Tito
Pol Pot
Ho Chi Min
Suharto
Ante Pavelic

OTOH, it also BEGS the question, of, following from the common wish among Atheists to destroy religion:
Deesse23: "Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse"

Did those leaders ACTUALLY do anything wrong?


Is this, as many Atheists claim, an artifact of Marxism? That claim does not deal with the problem of the Cristero War (non-Marxxist Atheists killing Christians) or why Atheists took to violence like a duck to water (quick to act), nor does it explain why Atheists became so bloodthirsty in its clutches (the level to which they sank) - all the while non-Marxists Atheists have https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYclw-ggtgw Tongue

I wonder about your favored reading material. It leans a little to the despotic. Consider Tho that would explain much about Atheism.

May I recommend instead:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/f...ation.html
And any of James Burkes' books and videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G8YHWbi-9U

P.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7IHU28aR2E&t=6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p9JY5FUazw&t=210s
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13-08-2017, 01:48 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(11-08-2017 01:13 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(10-08-2017 09:22 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  IT started from a claim that Hitchens is not a totalitarian.

Since I haven't heard a single one of you condemn his statements, and that several of you have defended him despite his statements. Accusing me of some how misreading "kill."

And when I mention that I am agreeing with the condemnation of TWO other Atheists. I am told vous don't give a damn what other Atheists say, your interpretation is absolutely the only correct one.

Statements that go like, "I don't like what you believe. You are a threat to civilization. I will not breathe the same air as you. I will kill you, and it will be a duty and a pleasure" Those ARE totalitarian in their essence.

And you don't care.

Unless Hitchens or anyone else has the authority and power to eliminate anyone who didn't agree with him, he was sharing his opinion, regardless of how strong.

Just like you're sharing your opinion of him.

But, why him? Why quote mine him? Why take his words, largely out of context to attack his character?

What have you got against him?

I agree with some of the stuff he said, but I also disagree with a lot too, I don't think he would have cared. He wasn't the leader of atheists.

Trying to lead atheists is like herding cats.

Now, that is something I know about. Tongue

Well, Hitchens is supportive and arguing in support of what Lenin did: Mass murder.

I wonder why you don't have anything against him.
While some sane people:
https://mronline.org/2005/11/26/the-geno...-hitchens/

"It’s not that atheists can’t be moral – the subject of so many mawkish debates. The question is which morality an atheist should serve": https://goodmenproject.com/featured-cont...sing-harm/
[Note: If you claim religion is a threat to all life on Earth or to human civilization, then maybe the morality Hitchens and Harris advocate is right.]

https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/saving-...secularism

OH NOoooo. "What have [they] got against him"?

I find it outright hilarious that you should equate Atheists with non-sentient species whose male's is nickname is synonymous with "amoral." Rolleyes
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13-08-2017, 02:03 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(11-08-2017 07:43 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Morondog

Not atheist but "communist" regimes. Or built upon foundation of marxism to be more precise. Marxism that evolved into religion, in SU at least.

Pol pot crimes had more to do with his want of returning to glory of Angkor from what I remember from his biography. His marxism was also influenced with religious themes if I recall correctly and strange.

Who were the "communists"... That's RIGHT=> ATHEISTS. Only Atheists could join The Party. Only Atheists could run for government office. Only Atheists could be elected.
ONLY ATHEISTS ruled the Marxist nations. Facepalm

What you "recall" is not reliable.

"Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk."
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13-08-2017, 02:31 AM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2017 03:16 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(13-08-2017 01:23 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(06-08-2017 06:07 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Did i make a claim? Did i present any premises or conclusions? Right, i didnt. So stop pretending i did.
So, if you think theses things werent mass murder, you surely have a nice rationalisation at hand, do you?
Alternatively if you do think those actions were mass murder, you dont have to give a rationalistation of course.

Nice sidestepping....but back to my humble requests (based on your claims). in case you forgot what you wrote, please allow me to repeat your claims for you:
Please give your definition of atheism.
Please show how atheism is related to morality.


Nice non-answer. Now lets try an actual answer, shall we?
Was the big flood mass murder? Its a simple "yes/no" question. I am not interested in what the bible or anyone else "thinks" or "reasons", i am interested in what you think: Yes or no? In case of the latter please let me repeat my humble request from my last post: Please explain how the big flood is not mass murder.


Ok, let me rephrase my question (as if it would make any difference to the question at hand): Please explain how killing all/every first born in Egypt is not mass murder. Drinking Beverage

Please provide evidence that Canaanites were "thugs".
and while you are at it
please explain how killing all of them according to Deuteronomy 20:16 "...thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" is not mass murder. Drinking Beverage

In the meantime i will be back in my library reading Marx´ "Das Kapital", Maos "Red Bible", Hitlers "Mein Kampf" or some of Pol Pots speeches. You can find me there, if you still have questions regarding my requests. Smartass

Nice sidestepping....but back to my one humble request: are Hitchens' statements the statements of a totalitarianist or not. That is the issue here, not your digression.

jerry mcmasters Wrote:
"I think the rest of us will remember a sensitive and articulate warrior for free speech, free thought, and liberty for all..."

Do the Hitchens quotes I gave sound sensitive, and supportive of "free thought" and liberty?

Atheism - the Theological label for what philosophy labels materialism/naturalism. With the addendum of all serious thoughts that start: "as there is no deity, therefore..."

But you still haven't answered the derivative question: why wasn't Hitchens "GOOD WITHOUT GOD"? Then again, why weren't so many Atheist leaders "GOOD WITHOUT GOD"?
Here's a short list:
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (Hitchens' favorite)
Jozef Stalin
Mao Ze-Dong
Kim II Sung
Tito
Pol Pot
Ho Chi Min
Suharto
Ante Pavelic

OTOH, it also BEGS the question, of, following from the common wish among Atheists to destroy religion:
Deesse23: "Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse"

Did those leaders ACTUALLY do anything wrong?


Is this, as many Atheists claim, an artifact of Marxism? That claim does not deal with the problem of the Cristero War (non-Marxxist Atheists killing Christians) or why Atheists took to violence like a duck to water (quick to act), nor does it explain why Atheists became so bloodthirsty in its clutches (the level to which they sank) - all the while non-Marxists Atheists have https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYclw-ggtgw Tongue

I wonder about your favored reading material. It leans a little to the despotic. Consider Tho that would explain much about Atheism.

May I recommend instead:
http://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/f...ation.html
And any of James Burkes' books and videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G8YHWbi-9U

P.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7IHU28aR2E&t=6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p9JY5FUazw&t=210s

You accuse me of "sidestepping", after you removed all of your sidesteppings from my post, and then procceed to not adress anything i asked you, nothing at all? Facepalm
You are now lying for Jesus without even caring at all to hide it, but i will come back later to that.

Didnt you understand what you have been told about Hitchens? If Hitches said something deplorable then it is deplorable, if he said someting sensible then its sensible? Dont you understand that ideas and deeds have their own merit? It doesnt matter who says but what.
Example: someone kills every living thing on earth. Is that Mass murder or not? I am still waiting for an answer. As i said, you keep accusing atheists of all kinda stuff, and i agree that most people on your list did a lot of evil things, but you still seem unable to make a basic moral evaluation about killing every living thing on earth. This is indeed puzzling, since these people mentioned by you *only* killed parts (very minor parts actually compared to everyone) of humanity. So if you think that killing parts of humanity makes you a moral monster i have to assume that you agree with everyone that killing every living thing on earth is worse than that. Or is that a long stretch for you?

Didnt i tell you i am still reading primary sources on communism, including Pol Pot and Mao? Cant you wait until i am finished? Btw., you forgot to add Hitler on your list, which is all too bad simce he was some kind of countryman of mine, so your guilty by association campaign would (possibly) stick. Thank you though for pointing out Kim Il sung and Ho Chi Minh. I will add their works to my "do to" list.

Oh, and when (or should i better say "if"?) you are answering this "kill every living thing" issue, please dont forget how you knew Canaanites were thugs....and that egyptian thingie too, why killing all firstborns was a decent thing to do, why killing all cattle too was necessary. This kinda stuff, you know.
You know why i am asking? Because i dont consider Hitchens to be an authority for me, but you surely consider your god being an authority for you, dont you? It makes me wonder again, why you cant simply acknowledge this and proudly defend his orders, i mean, he is your ultimate authority, isnt he? What do you think he thinks about people not standing up for him and defending his clear cut orders and actions? What do you think happens to people like this after they die?

Quote:OTOH, it also BEGS the question, of, following from the common wish among Atheists to destroy religion:
Deesse23: "Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse"
Please!...(dont?) become more hysterical. Did i say anything about religious people? I could have written "stupidity needs to be destroyed". Would you conclude that i am advocating eugenics? I could have written "ignorance should be destroyed". Would you conclude i am advocating to kill every person who didnt go to high school? You are becoming dishonest to the point that i am worried your lord may take notice, and we both knows what happens to liars (liars for Jesus too). The same thing that the people on your list are going to experience, isnt that ironic, that if you are right and your god exists, you may meet them? Oh, i find that highly immoral too by the way, to punish liars like mass murders. I am not expecting however that you are joining me in a meaningful discusison about this, but will continue your fingerpointing.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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13-08-2017, 02:36 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
I've decided that FarSeeker is the online equivalent of those twats who stand around with "God hates fags" signs.

He's not here for debate, or to actually engage in conversation. He's purely here to push his bullshit ideas. Any challenge to those bullshit ideas will be met with either evasion, pretend-refutations, or failing all else complete silence, while he carries on shouting about how we atheists all are de facto mass-murder lovers. He's a dishonest prick.

Hey FarSeeker, do you think you're actually doing some good in the world, or are you just satisfying your urge to be a giant douche?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-08-2017, 03:21 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(13-08-2017 01:23 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  ...
And any of James Burke's books and videos:
...

That dude was one of many enlighteners who helped me to confirm my atheistic bias in my mid teens.

Praise him with great praise.

Bowing

(13-08-2017 02:36 AM)morondog Wrote:  ...
He's a dishonest prick.
...

I think it's an ethics problem. He has settled for 'divinity ethics' and has trouble comprehending (or is blissfully unaware) that not everyone uses the same model.

Therefore, he might honestly believe that atheists consider Hitchens to be a kind of deity.

Blink

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13-08-2017, 03:21 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(13-08-2017 02:36 AM)morondog Wrote:  He's a dishonest prick.

Liars for Jesus, they are the worst of them.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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