How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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18-06-2012, 07:35 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(18-06-2012 07:28 PM)Ghost Wrote:  
Quote:Christian Radio Host: “Well, I wanted to make it
quite clear in our closing moments to you, Christopher, I don’t consider
you an enemy, I don’t consider you, uh”
Christopher Hitchens: “Well, I’m very sorry to hear that.”

Radio Host: “I know, because you want me to be your enemy.”

Hitchens: “Well, no, excuse me, you are my enemy.”

Radio Host: “Well, you’re not my enemy.”

Hitchens: “How do you figure that?”

Radio Host: “No, because I don’t feel the need to have to silence you, Christopher Hitchens.”

Hitchens:
“Well, you don’t have a chance of doing that. I don’t mean that at
all, I mean your preachments are evil and are a direct threat to the
survival of civilization. If you don’t consider me an enemy, then you
don’t know an enemy when you see or hear one.”
Enemy, yes. Totalitarian, no.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-06-2012, 08:04 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(18-06-2012 07:28 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I'm with you, I don't like being told what I can and cannot do. I just don't like telling either.

Just feels rude to me.

#sigh
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18-06-2012, 10:24 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Hey, Chas.

Well, seeing as how there is as of yet no totalitarian state in the United States of America, I'm going to agree with you. It's pretty far from the point, but sure, why not.

My point is, there were no Christopher Hitchens' in open Baghdad. Neither were there Fred Phelps'. If anyone takes over with the aim of eliminating those views that they do not agree with, that is a crime worthy of Al-Ghazali.

Hey, Hafnof.

What I meant is, if you think in those terms, you aren't going to find an olive branch.

Imagine you're in a relationship with a woman, and you think to yourself, "Man, things will be so much better when she fixes all of her problems," what do you think the future of that relationship is gonna be?

Hey, Girly.

Just a side note on drone strikes. The CIA carries out drone strikes without any sanction from congress. That's huge. Like huge huge. It's essentially a way to be able to declare war on another country without getting approval from congress. Because it's not the military. It's the CIA. The CIA has sortied more drones into Pakistan, not Afghanistan, Pakistan, than the US sortied manned bomber strikes into Kosovo during the Kosovo war (which, you'll note, was a war) and they have done it with zero oversight. Again, that's fucking huge. And pretty much 100% illegal. More than anything else, it should be classified as an epic murder spree. So we're not talking about a couple of strikes here and there. It's a full-fledged air war, without the mess of being called a war. Then the Americans come in on a humanitarian mission and say trust us. I don't know that I would myself. Maybe I'd say, "leave the vaccine at the door and then go fuck yourself," and then get my own people to do it, but as barbaric as the Taliban's decision may seem (think of the children!) it's not crazy (nor is it in any way a commentary on Islam).

Check this documentary. It's called Remote Control War. It's excellent.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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18-06-2012, 10:28 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
This guy is a horrible public speaker.
Also doubters are called doubters, Atheists have no doubt that there is no God so how can you call an Atheist a doubter? This guy obviously doesn't know shit.

Ok just finished watching the video, I forgive him.

This is fascinating.
I would say however that it is not quite to the extent of way back then where 'investigation', as he puts it, stopped. Now, investigation continues. Yeah it's slowed because of religion, but it isn't halted like how it described happened in the desert ages ago.
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18-06-2012, 10:55 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Ghost, I'm not sure exactly what you are reading into my comments so feel free to elaborate on what you think the barriers are that I am imposing to the extension of an olive branch. I don't have anything against moderate religion or the religious, but any transition from dogmatic religion to a viewpoint that accepts some of the key things know about the universe involves at least a risk of losing one's faith when dogmas are shaken or broken. So in that sense they are right that in letting go of their dogma they may end up letting go of a whole lot more. I also think it's clear that many Christians believe they are in a spiritual war whereby anyone who questions a dogma might be working for the other guy. I come from this tradition.

When ordinary people talk to ordinary people I think we can all get along. Dogma (admittedly on both sides) is a key problem, but that's what your post was about. It's not about the moderates, but about the guys who have already gone into overdrive protect-my-religion dogma mode. How do we get those people to rejoin the mainstream? In the end I guess it will always require knowing someone who doesn't share your beliefs but whom you can still respect.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-06-2012, 08:12 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(18-06-2012 06:24 PM)DannyW Wrote:  http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/201...rikes?lite

...Aaaaaand, fuck islam.
Oh, good. It will be that much easier to stomp the Taliban's guts out when all their warriors show up on the battlefield in wheelchairs and iron lungs.

Stupid fuckers!

"IN THRUST WE TRUST"

"We were conservative Jews and that meant we obeyed God's Commandments until His rules became a royal pain in the ass."

- Joel Chastnoff, The 188th Crybaby Brigade
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19-06-2012, 08:16 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2012 08:33 AM by Ghost.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Hey, Hafnof.

I went back and read your post and I think what sparked me was this.
Quote:... the model as proposed must be discarded in favour of reliable models such as cosmology and evolution...

Which at the time seemed very much like an ultimatum, but perhaps I took it slightly out of context. If I did, you have my apology.

Speaking to the end of your post, I agree, there is the possibility that they will lose their faith. It's happened before. The Vatican used to rule the planet, now, not so much. That's just cultural evolution at work. But there's a difference between cultural evolution and feeling under attack. When people say, you're wrong, you're dumb, you have no right to think that way, you're a danger, your ideas should be purged from the world, how can they do anything but go on the defensive? I think that the main difference between what I perceive today and the flavour in your post I picked up on is that open Baghdad was non-judgemental. Everyone was welcome as is. It's like that line in Higher Learning, "Remy is it? Man, I gotta admit you've been really polite by staying out of my way. But you ain't been honest. See I figure, it's not what a person says it's what they think. So in my mind, you've been walking around here calling me a nigger in you head. Am I right?" If in your head you think they're misguided and deluded and false and anything else, they can pick up on that. I don't want to come off as harsh and suggest that you're a racist, lol, so please don't think that's what I mean.

There was just as sense I got at the end of your post that Christians simply must embrace cosmology and evolution. My question is, who says? I mean obviously the guy that paid for that billboard in Neil's video is an extremist who has no current interest in living in peace and harmony, but I mean the average person who is just like, "Hey, man, I believe in Genesis and creation. You do your thing, brother, I'll do mine."

For me the trick comes down to one simple thing. The idea that there is only one Truth. As long as people think that then anyone who doesn't believe what you believe is necessarily wrong and necessarily a threat to your world view. The trick, as I see it, is getting people to let go of that idea. If we do that, then everyone can breathe.

ON EDIT:

Just a little thought, because everyone's harping on the Taliban. Afghanistan has been occupied or under direct attack for decades. Decades. People have been trying to crush them for decades. The current generation knows nothing other than war. I bet their parents are the same. Of course the Taliban are extremists. They don't just perceive an attack, they're being attacked. A lot. So it's easy to look at them and say, "fucking extremists," but for Christ's sake, we made them that way. If you beat a dog and it bites you, it's not the dog's fault. To top it off, our reaction to their extremism is what? To try and destroy them for being extreme. If that ain't just the mother of all retardation, I don't know what is. It's pure hypocrisy of the ugliest form. And the sheer Orwellian nature of the west's relationship with the Taliban is shocking. Six months before 9-11, Bush gave the Taliban 5 billion dollars. Because they were allies. When the US invaded Afghanistan, deposing the Taliban was not a war aim (that from the mouth of an American general). It wasn't until about six months into the war, when American's were getting sick of it and needed a boogeyman to hate, that all of a sudden, the Orwell kicked in and suddenly the Taliban were extremist woman haters who needed to die. So what's the trick for the Afghani people? Well no brainer number one seems to me to be to stop killing them. That seems like a good first step. Then we might consider not occupying their country. Then we might consider helping them get to a point where they can trust that they won't be invaded. Then, sadly, we have to let the inevitable civil war play itself out like it did in the 90s, but not interfere this time. Then, when the dust settles, the Afghani people themselves will be able to sort through things. Even if the Taliban came out on top, they wouldn't last. Because when the fever of fear gave way to the sobriety of "help, help, I'm being repressed", the moderates would take over and the country would be healed. But none of that will happen as long as we kill them indiscriminately because we think they're savage extremists forged by their own hand who must be crushed underfoot and put down like a rabid dog.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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04-08-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(18-06-2012 07:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(18-06-2012 07:28 PM)Ghost Wrote:  
Enemy, yes. Totalitarian, no.

Only if you leave out the rest of what he said:
"I am not even an atheist so much as an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." C. Hitchens
---

"One of Lenin's great achievements, in my opinion, is to create a secular Russia."
Christopher Hitchens
*Why is Hitchens so proud of Lenin?*
"The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, ..." - Wikipedia.
---

"I'm not going to love them. You go love them if you want. Don't love them on my behalf. I'll get on with killing them, destroying them, erasing them. And you can love them. But the idea that you ought to love them is not a moral idea at all. It's a wicked idea." C. Hitchens
---

Christian Radio Host: “Well, I wanted to make it quite clear in our closing moments to you,
Christopher, I don't consider you an enemy, I don't consider you, uh”

Christopher Hitchens: “Well, I'm very sorry to hear that."

Radio Host: “I know, because you want me to be your enemy.”

*Hitchens: “Well, no, excuse me, you are my enemy.”*

Radio Host: “Well, you're not my enemy.”

Hitchens: “How do you figure that?”

Radio Host: “No, because I don't feel the need to have to silence you, Christopher Hitchens.”

b/ Hitchens: “Well, you don't have a chance of doing that. I don't mean that at all,
I mean your preachments are evil and are a direct threat to the survival of civilization.
If you don't consider me an enemy, then you don't know an enemy when you see or hear one.” /b
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...Day?page=2
---
“I think the enemies of civilisation should be beaten and killed and defeated, and I don’t make any apology for it… We can’t live on the same planet as them, and I’m glad because I don’t want to. I don’t want to breathe the same air as these psychopaths and murderers… It’s them or me. I’m very happy about this because I know it will be them.” https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/09/fiel...nt-review/
---

"Clever polemicist that he was, Hitchens distorted that to mock the question: The numbers of those bombed will decline. Yes, but the question is about how we reduce a specific subpopulation by indiscriminate bombing of the whole population. Hitchens doesn't care. He has an opportunity to riff on the machismo of war."
"When the side of Jihad said, can we take these casualties? When they worry, have we alienated the people? … They will get to the stage where they realise they have made a mistake, all the evidence in Iraq is that al-Qaeda have already discredited and disgraced themselves, and it's a matter now of just hunting down and killing them, which I think is a pleasure and a duty."
Read more: https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/...z4jq6qE0X6
---

During the  2007 Freedom From Religion Foundation's (FFRF) convention, Christopher Hitchens shocked many in the audience when he recommended carpet bombing Muslims.
Responding to Hitchens' comments a conference-goer asked, "How exactly does bombing and killing Muslims lessen their numbers or limit their fervor?" Rather than clarifying that he did not wish to merely indiscriminately murder Muslims but rather desired to attack strategic targets, he mocked the questioner. "I'm just wondering if I should draw you a picture. You mean how does killing them lessen their number?"
He went on to state: "The numbers of those bombed will decline." He also described the hunting and killing of al-Qaida not only as a duty, but a "pleasure". 
https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/saving-...secularism

NOTE: Hitchens has no problem with the " indiscriminate bombing" of his enemies.
---

But then, Hitchens isn't the only one to hold those views:

Bertrand Russel: "I believe that, owing to men's folly, a world government will only be established by force, and therefore be at first cruel and despotic. But I believe that it is necessary for the preservation of a scientific civilization, and that, if once realized, it will gradually give rise to the other conditions of a tolerable existence." "Icarus, or, the Future of Science," 1924.
See also Russel's "The Bomb and Civilization."

With Atheism, mass-murder is not immoral, it's just a rational choice. You can choose to commit it, or you can choose not to. Either is permitted because one Atheist cannot force their moral precepts on another; they don't have a warrant to do so.
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04-08-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(04-08-2017 12:56 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(18-06-2012 07:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  Enemy, yes. Totalitarian, no.

Only if you leave out the rest of what he said:
"I am not even an atheist so much as an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." C. Hitchens
---

"One of Lenin's great achievements, in my opinion, is to create a secular Russia."
Christopher Hitchens
*Why is Hitchens so proud of Lenin?*
"The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, ..." - Wikipedia.
---

"I'm not going to love them. You go love them if you want. Don't love them on my behalf. I'll get on with killing them, destroying them, erasing them. And you can love them. But the idea that you ought to love them is not a moral idea at all. It's a wicked idea." C. Hitchens
---

Christian Radio Host: “Well, I wanted to make it quite clear in our closing moments to you,
Christopher, I don't consider you an enemy, I don't consider you, uh”

Christopher Hitchens: “Well, I'm very sorry to hear that."

Radio Host: “I know, because you want me to be your enemy.”

*Hitchens: “Well, no, excuse me, you are my enemy.”*

Radio Host: “Well, you're not my enemy.”

Hitchens: “How do you figure that?”

Radio Host: “No, because I don't feel the need to have to silence you, Christopher Hitchens.”

b/ Hitchens: “Well, you don't have a chance of doing that. I don't mean that at all,
I mean your preachments are evil and are a direct threat to the survival of civilization.
If you don't consider me an enemy, then you don't know an enemy when you see or hear one.” /b
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...Day?page=2
---
“I think the enemies of civilisation should be beaten and killed and defeated, and I don’t make any apology for it… We can’t live on the same planet as them, and I’m glad because I don’t want to. I don’t want to breathe the same air as these psychopaths and murderers… It’s them or me. I’m very happy about this because I know it will be them.” https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/09/fiel...nt-review/
---

"Clever polemicist that he was, Hitchens distorted that to mock the question: The numbers of those bombed will decline. Yes, but the question is about how we reduce a specific subpopulation by indiscriminate bombing of the whole population. Hitchens doesn't care. He has an opportunity to riff on the machismo of war."
"When the side of Jihad said, can we take these casualties? When they worry, have we alienated the people? … They will get to the stage where they realise they have made a mistake, all the evidence in Iraq is that al-Qaeda have already discredited and disgraced themselves, and it's a matter now of just hunting down and killing them, which I think is a pleasure and a duty."
Read more: https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/...z4jq6qE0X6
---

During the  2007 Freedom From Religion Foundation's (FFRF) convention, Christopher Hitchens shocked many in the audience when he recommended carpet bombing Muslims.
Responding to Hitchens' comments a conference-goer asked, "How exactly does bombing and killing Muslims lessen their numbers or limit their fervor?" Rather than clarifying that he did not wish to merely indiscriminately murder Muslims but rather desired to attack strategic targets, he mocked the questioner. "I'm just wondering if I should draw you a picture. You mean how does killing them lessen their number?"
He went on to state: "The numbers of those bombed will decline." He also described the hunting and killing of al-Qaida not only as a duty, but a "pleasure". 
https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/saving-...secularism

NOTE: Hitchens has no problem with the " indiscriminate bombing" of his enemies.
---

But then, Hitchens isn't the only one to hold those views:

Bertrand Russel: "I believe that, owing to men's folly, a world government will only be established by force, and therefore be at first cruel and despotic. But I believe that it is necessary for the preservation of a scientific civilization, and that, if once realized, it will gradually give rise to the other conditions of a tolerable existence." "Icarus, or, the Future of Science," 1924.
See also Russel's "The Bomb and Civilization."

With Atheism, mass-murder is not immoral, it's just a rational choice. You can choose to commit it, or you can choose not to. Either is permitted because one Atheist cannot force their moral precepts on another; they don't have a warrant to do so.

Holy necro batman!

You made an account to post in a thread from 2012?

Meh...whatever...


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-08-2017, 02:54 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(18-06-2012 06:08 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  If there is a fear of atheism or science it seems to centre around truth claims about creation myths. Creationists are sending their children to school only to find that the school is teaching their children "lies". "lies" are all over nature and science documentaries.

There is a real conflict between what they see as their revealed truths (Let there be light, Adam and Eve, etc) and science's view of truth (that the predictions of this model of reality are not accurate, and that the model as proposed must be discarded in favour of reliable models such as cosmology and evolution).
....

If one accepts science and evolution, then there was no Adam and Eve. If there was no Adam and Eve, there was no original sin. If there was no original sin, this eliminates the need for Jesus and the whole scheme of Christianity as a religion.

Christians have two choices. Retreat into literalism and desperate apologisms. Or try to reconcile what's left of Christianity with science.

Fundamentalism is the intellectually lazy way out. One simply has to ignore unpleasant fact, which many fundies do without much effort.

Your fifteen minutes as the Buddha are up.

Cheerful Charlie
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