How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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24-08-2017, 10:46 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(13-08-2017 07:25 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 01:23 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Then again, why weren't so many Atheist leaders "GOOD WITHOUT GOD"?

Why are so many theist leaders not good even with god? Should we start listing prominent believers who have done or made calls for absolutely disgusting actions? It is likely to be a long list.

Nevermind... just keep arguing your strawman version of atheism.

Again, reframing the question, and then avoiding it. Nice dodge. However, you're admitting Atheists are no better than Christians, OK.
The difference is, Christians have the teachings of Jesus to guide them, and if they
fail to follow those teachings, it's their failure, not Christianity's. If an Athiest fails
to be moral, their whole belief system that they can be "Good Without God"
through reason alone fails.

Norm: "An unwritten rule that underlies and inherent in the fabric of society."
More: "An unwritten, but generally known, rule that governs serious
violations of the social code."
Morals: "Ethical principles, or principles meant to guide human conduct and
behavior; principles or standards of right and wrong."
Deviant Behavior: "Violations of both mores and norms are forms of
deviance called "deviant behavior" ."
Natural Law: "The rules of conduct inherent in human nature and on the
natural order, which are thought to be knowable through intuition, inspiration,
and the exercise of reason without the need to refer to man-made laws
(Inherently Known)"
https://quizlet.com/9021574/criminal-law...ash-cards/

Atheists have the same Natural Law that Christians have, but claim that all they
need to be "Good Without God" is their reason. Thus when an Atheists violate the
law, they show that their Reason is not sufficient, and that their Claim to be
"Good Without God" is false.

Look at Hicks as a recent example.

I find your imaginary version of Atheism interesting. It's full of Faith.
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24-08-2017, 10:53 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(24-08-2017 10:46 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 07:25 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Why are so many theist leaders not good even with god? Should we start listing prominent believers who have done or made calls for absolutely disgusting actions? It is likely to be a long list.

Nevermind... just keep arguing your strawman version of atheism.

Again, reframing the question, and then avoiding it. Nice dodge. However, you're admitting Atheists are no better than Christians, OK.
The difference is, Christians have the teachings of Jesus to guide them, and if they
fail to follow those teachings, it's their failure, not Christianity's. If an Athiest fails
to be moral, their whole belief system that they can be "Good Without God"
through reason alone fails.

Norm: "An unwritten rule that underlies and inherent in the fabric of society."
More: "An unwritten, but generally known, rule that governs serious
violations of the social code."
Morals: "Ethical principles, or principles meant to guide human conduct and
behavior; principles or standards of right and wrong."
Deviant Behavior: "Violations of both mores and norms are forms of
deviance called "deviant behavior" ."
Natural Law: "The rules of conduct inherent in human nature and on the
natural order, which are thought to be knowable through intuition, inspiration,
and the exercise of reason without the need to refer to man-made laws
(Inherently Known)"
https://quizlet.com/9021574/criminal-law...ash-cards/

Atheists have the same Natural Law that Christians have, but claim that all they
need to be "Good Without God" is their reason. Thus when an Atheists violate the
law, they show that their Reason is not sufficient, and that their Claim to be
"Good Without God" is false.

Look at Hicks as a recent example.

I find your imaginary version of Atheism interesting. It's full of Faith.

You are babbling, and you know fuck all about atheism.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-08-2017, 05:41 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(24-08-2017 10:46 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Again, reframing the question, and then avoiding it. Nice dodge.

It was an attempt to get you to see how poorly framed your questions are.

You continually point out specific atheists who did abhorrent things and use that to refute the "good without god" slogan. It shows either a basic misunderstanding of what that means or a willful misrepresentation of it. Given that many responses have pointed out the problem, I have to assume the latter and that you are just another Liar For Jesus™.

I'll try to make it simple:
Not believing in god does not make you good.
Not believing in god does not make you bad.
Believing in god does not make you good.
Believing in god does not make you bad.
You can be a decent person and not believe.
You can be a vile person and not believe.
You can be a decent person and believe.
You can be a vile person and believe.

The slogan "good without god" only means that, contrary to the claims of many religious people, you do not need a god to have morals and lead a decent life. It is NOT the claim that you WILL be good without god or that you can't be good with god.

Now take your fucking strawman and go away.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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25-08-2017, 07:24 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(24-08-2017 10:46 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(13-08-2017 07:25 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Why are so many theist leaders not good even with god? Should we start listing prominent believers who have done or made calls for absolutely disgusting actions? It is likely to be a long list.

Nevermind... just keep arguing your strawman version of atheism.

Again, reframing the question, and then avoiding it. Nice dodge. However, you're admitting Atheists are no better than Christians, OK.
The difference is, Christians have the teachings of Jesus to guide them, and if they
fail to follow those teachings, it's their failure, not Christianity's. If an Athiest fails
to be moral, their whole belief system that they can be "Good Without God"
through reason alone fails.

Norm: "An unwritten rule that underlies and inherent in the fabric of society."
More: "An unwritten, but generally known, rule that governs serious
violations of the social code."
Morals: "Ethical principles, or principles meant to guide human conduct and
behavior; principles or standards of right and wrong."
Deviant Behavior: "Violations of both mores and norms are forms of
deviance called "deviant behavior" ."
Natural Law: "The rules of conduct inherent in human nature and on the
natural order, which are thought to be knowable through intuition, inspiration,
and the exercise of reason without the need to refer to man-made laws
(Inherently Known)"
https://quizlet.com/9021574/criminal-law...ash-cards/

Atheists have the same Natural Law that Christians have, but claim that all they
need to be "Good Without God" is their reason. Thus when an Atheists violate the
law, they show that their Reason is not sufficient, and that their Claim to be
"Good Without God" is false.

Look at Hicks as a recent example.

I find your imaginary version of Atheism interesting. It's full of Faith.

I find it hard to believe that you are that naive.

'Can' be good without a divinity does not equal 'will' be good without a divinity.

Indeed, the same natural laws apply to all. Natural laws include killing to stay alive so what does that prove?

My favourite teaching of your Jesus relates to hypocrisy ... he who is without sin etc.

What I particularly like about it is that Jesus never said it and christianity has adopted it from the real world.

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06-10-2017, 10:13 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(24-08-2017 10:31 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  b) No, atheists dont believe in any gods, its part of the definition and job description. The fact that lenininsts are religious shows they werent atheists
c) you dont read a lot more than just not polish Thumbsup
d) Have you made up your mind about killing every living thing on earth, all Canaanites (including cattle, poor, innocent bovines), every egyptian firstborn, etc. or are you still loking for verses to apologize that?
I am still wondering you arent able to simply say "killing every living thing on earth is bad". Its so easy to evaluate, and so easy to say. why cant you? Consider

b) Yet Hitchens, a Rabid Atheist/Anti-Theist, said Lenin was a Great man because Lenin created a SECULAR Russia; something a religious person would be unlikely to do.
Also, Leninists required Atheism to be a member of The Party, so your attempt to use an equivocation fallacy fails. Despite all that, I'm sure you will religiously hold to your argument that they were religious (You're only obfuscating because you have no valid reasoning to support your claims). I'm sure you will never actually accuse a Leninist of that personally, as the results would be you ducking your metaphorical tail between your legs and running from their forum. Yes, I'm accusing you of cowardice as you know that the anger of an insulted Christian is one thing, but the anger of an insulted Leninist could be fatal. Consider Gasp

c) No, Comrade cat implied I wouldn't read the book he told me to read because I didn't want to know his "truths," when in fact he knew it was never written in a language I could read (Which likely means no one speaking English thought it was important enough to translate).
I actually have a rather large personal library, of which I am rather proud. It includes Dawkins' Delusion book, Harris' books "The End..." and "Letters to...", and Hitchens "God is..." book. I also have a collection of Asimov compilation books that impressed an Atheist acquaintance of mine. So, in conclusion, your bigotted claim that I don't read a lot is just your ignorance speaking. Speak again old toothless one.

d) Why is the subject of Atheists' Morality dependent on what happened to the Canaanites, their possessions and Egyptian firstborn? You're combining the Tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy), non sequitur and red herring fallacies. Creative, yet still a failure on your part.
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06-10-2017, 10:37 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 12:08 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Please give your definition of atheism.
Please show how not believing any god claim is related to morality.
Please explain how the big flood (killing all babies in egypt, all Canaanites, etc, pp.) is not mass murder.

Ah, a "Tu quoque" fallacy. Chancy, but likely the only line of argument available as the Holodomor, Katyn Forrest, the "Killing Fields" and Tiananmen Sq. really don't leave you much room to maneuver.
1) There are these books, called "dictionaries" that tell you what a word means. They can be found in places called "libraries." Look for the nearest in the phone book.

2) I did that above in my post about C. Hitchens. If so many Atheists cannot maintain a morality up to your standards, there must be something they're missing. That is, unless you agree with Hitchens.

3) The Bible explains The Flood and its reason explicitly. I don't need to explain any further to a person who can read: Genesis 6:5.
The Bible does not say babies, only first born: Exodus 11:5. My brother is a first born and over 50 yrs old. Do try to do a little research before posting about the dogma you've been indoctrinated with.
Canaanites,? see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

There was no Flood or Noah - it's all myth. But go right ahead with your childish tales, just stop badgering intelligent people with them.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-10-2017, 10:51 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(07-08-2017 09:33 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Is there really a difference. I keep running into "Dictionary Atheists." There seems to be one in the posts above that asked me what my definition of Atheism was. In my experience, that type of question leads to "all Atheism is the 'unbelief' in a deity." If that is all Atheism is, then there isn't Reeeeally much difference between it and nihilism.

Pretty weak non sequitur there.

Quote:Or is there a "Holy Book of Atheist Morals" that all Atheists must adhere to? I ask because there has been a whole hell of a lot of Atheists who have failed to hold any acceptable standard - and few who took them to task for not holding any. How many forums can you find me where "Secular Humanists" berate Marxists for how evil their philosophy and actions are. I mean, compared to those that do the same to Christians? Where's the "anti-Marxist" forum on "The Thinking Atheist" site?

How about because Marxism is a dead issue.

Quote:I mean, REALLY! I have presented, with the agreement of those present, the words of a highly intelligent Atheist calling for the mass-killing of those he calls a threat to civilization. If intelligence is the only thing that you need to be "Good Without God," then what the hell happened to C. Hitchens? Shocking

Why do you keep capitalizing 'atheist' and 'atheism'? They are not proper nouns.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-10-2017, 11:02 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(25-08-2017 07:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  My favourite teaching of your Jesus relates to hypocrisy ... he who is without sin etc.

What I particularly like about it is that Jesus never said it and christianity has adopted it from the real world.

Thumbsup

Facepalm
Really? You're that prejudice against Christians that you'll make that claim? Did you claim that because you're ignorant or lying?
It was NOT, "adopted it from the real world." It is a summation of the actual verse:
"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” "
John 8:7


That other Atheists on this forum do not care about the lies and misrepresentations of Christianity
on this form is one more sign of what I'm talking about. If someone talks ill about Atheists,
oh it's just hateful, but if someone does it about Christians,
it's just par for the course.
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06-10-2017, 11:04 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 07:44 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  1) I was quoting other Atheists, so what is you problem?
>"Atheists are allowed to agree or disagree on any and every issue."
That is irrelevant. Words mean things, and when someone says:

"I'm not going to love them. You go love them if you want. Don't love them on my behalf. I'll get on with killing them, destroying them, erasing them. And you can love them. But the idea that you ought to love them is not a moral idea at all. It's a wicked idea."

Well, you've revealed yourself as a lying twat by quoting out of context and trying to play the victim.
What he said was:
" And then the third, perhaps the most immoral of all, is the injunction to love your enemies. That I will not do. I know who my enemies are. At the moment the most deadly ones are Islamist theocrats with a homicidal and genocidal agenda. I'm not going to love them. You go love them if you want; don't love them on my behalf. I'll get on with killing them and destroying them, erasing them and you can love them. But the idea that you ought to love them is not a moral idea at all. It's a wicked idea and I hope it doesn't take hold, especially on any of you seemingly serious, decent, young people. What a disgusting order to love those people."

He wasn't talking about religious people and certainly not about Christians, you lying cunt.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-10-2017, 11:08 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(09-08-2017 03:31 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Again...it bears repeating, but since when does Hitchens speak for all atheists?

No, not all atheists, just the True Atheists®. Big Grin

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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