How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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07-10-2017, 12:08 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-10-2017 11:02 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(25-08-2017 07:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  My favourite teaching of your Jesus relates to hypocrisy ... he who is without sin etc.

What I particularly like about it is that Jesus never said it and christianity has adopted it from the real world.

Thumbsup

Facepalm
Really? You're that prejudice against Christians that you'll make that claim? Did you claim that because you're ignorant or lying?
It was NOT, "adopted it from the real world." It is a summation of the actual verse:
"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” "
John 8:7


That other Atheists on this forum do not care about the lies and misrepresentations of Christianity
on this form is one more sign of what I'm talking about. If someone talks ill about Atheists,
oh it's just hateful, but if someone does it about Christians,
it's just par for the course.

Yup. A summation of the actual verse that was never uttered by the Jesus character.

Dude, it's not my problem that one of the three monotheisms has such difficulty with version control and data integrity.

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07-10-2017, 12:51 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-10-2017 11:02 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(25-08-2017 07:24 AM)DLJ Wrote:  My favourite teaching of your Jesus relates to hypocrisy ... he who is without sin etc.

What I particularly like about it is that Jesus never said it and christianity has adopted it from the real world.

Thumbsup

Facepalm
Really? You're that prejudice against Christians that you'll make that claim? Did you claim that because you're ignorant or lying?
It was NOT, "adopted it from the real world." It is a summation of the actual verse:
"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” "
John 8:7


That other Atheists on this forum do not care about the lies and misrepresentations of Christianity
on this form is one more sign of what I'm talking about. If someone talks ill about Atheists,
oh it's just hateful, but if someone does it about Christians,
it's just par for the course.

This little tall tale was added later to John, who never wrote that. It is not found in earliest manuscripts of John. But was added into some early manuscripts of Matthew. Are you not aware of this? Most true Bible experts are quite aware of this fact. It's unlikely that this littler story occurred or Jesus said anything here.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
- Thomas Jefferson

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07-10-2017, 01:17 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-10-2017 10:13 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(24-08-2017 10:31 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  b) No, atheists dont believe in any gods, its part of the definition and job description. The fact that lenininsts are religious shows they werent atheists
c) you dont read a lot more than just not polish Thumbsup
d) Have you made up your mind about killing every living thing on earth, all Canaanites (including cattle, poor, innocent bovines), every egyptian firstborn, etc. or are you still loking for verses to apologize that?
I am still wondering you arent able to simply say "killing every living thing on earth is bad". Its so easy to evaluate, and so easy to say. why cant you? Consider

b) Yet Hitchens, a Rabid Atheist/Anti-Theist, said Lenin was a Great man because Lenin created a SECULAR Russia; something a religious person would be unlikely to do.
Also, Leninists required Atheism to be a member of The Party, so your attempt to use an equivocation fallacy fails. Despite all that, I'm sure you will religiously hold to your argument that they were religious (You're only obfuscating because you have no valid reasoning to support your claims). I'm sure you will never actually accuse a Leninist of that personally, as the results would be you ducking your metaphorical tail between your legs and running from their forum. Yes, I'm accusing you of cowardice as you know that the anger of an insulted Christian is one thing, but the anger of an insulted Leninist could be fatal. Consider Gasp

c) No, Comrade cat implied I wouldn't read the book he told me to read because I didn't want to know his "truths," when in fact he knew it was never written in a language I could read (Which likely means no one speaking English thought it was important enough to translate).
I actually have a rather large personal library, of which I am rather proud. It includes Dawkins' Delusion book, Harris' books "The End..." and "Letters to...", and Hitchens "God is..." book. I also have a collection of Asimov compilation books that impressed an Atheist acquaintance of mine. So, in conclusion, your bigotted claim that I don't read a lot is just your ignorance speaking. Speak again old toothless one.

d) Why is the subject of Atheists' Morality dependent on what happened to the Canaanites, their possessions and Egyptian firstborn? You're combining the Tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy), non sequitur and red herring fallacies. Creative, yet still a failure on your part.

Why are you quoting my post when you are not replying to it at all but just deflecting?
My post is from August, now its October. You had plenty of time to think about the issue:
Quote:Have you made up your mind about killing every living thing on earth, all Canaanites (including cattle, poor, innocent bovines), every egyptian firstborn, etc. or are you still loking for verses to apologize that?
Did you find a (reasonable) answer to this in the meantime? If so, why did it take you this long? I think its a pretty simple question with a simple answer.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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08-10-2017, 01:16 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(18-08-2017 08:35 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(16-08-2017 11:06 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Actually, astuteness is not required; just an interest in educating yourself:

When Atheists Rule, they reason:
1) There is no deity.
2) There are no rules or morality given by deities.
3) We Atheists make the rules and decide what is moral.

Hitchens specific reasoning:
1) "I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." C. Hitchens

2) "I'm not going to love them. You go love them if you want. Don't love them on my behalf. I'll get on with killing them, destroying them, erasing them. And you can love them. But the idea that you ought to love them is not a moral idea at all. It's a wicked idea." C. Hitchens

From First Amendment to Auschwitz in just a few easy steps.
---

Quotes and reasoning from other Atheists could be added; specifically those of Lenin, Russell, and Harris.

For example, an Atheist on this forum has a catch phrase that read: "Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse," which is Latin for: "But I think that religion must be destroyed." A sentiment Lenin, Hitchens, Harris and a bunch of other Atheists shared/share.

The Atheist posters on this forum prove my point. They pontificate about their claim to morals, but they will likely never try to convince any other Atheists the killing Christians will not reduce their numbers.

Well thanks for the response, but at no point did you actually address my question. Maybe try again and instead of talking about Hitchens or forum members, you could try to give some insight into the connection between atheism and murderous regimes, besides your own obvious biases.

I'd like to see the "reasoning" used by past dictators, from their own words, that explains why atheism can be used as a source of reasoning to kill people.

If you can provide that, in full context of course, then maybe I'll consider anything you say to have any worth.

How are the words of Your fellow Atheists, My “obvious biases.”?

Lenin's reasons seem actually very mild compared to what the "New Atheists" are saying today:

"He writes that Marxism “is absolutely atheistic and positively hostile to all religion” (Lenin 15:402; see also Lenin 19:23); it is a curse, a diversion of the working class, offering futile hopes of life after death. “Religious fog,” “medieval mildew,” “obscurantism,” “humbugging” (Lenin 10:84, 85, 87)[1] – these terms initially seem to express the essence of Lenin’s position."

"As a system of belief, religion adds to the oppressive woes of the exploited, “coarsening and darkening … the spiritual and moral life of the masses” "

"How does one respond to religion? First, systematic education will make workers and peasants see the light. Through the press and word of mouth, through “an explanation of the true historical and economic roots of the religious fog” (Lenin 10:86; see also Lenin 15:404), will the truth of religion be revealed. "
(https://philosophersforchange.org/2014/0...religion/)
---

Then there are the reasons Hitchens and other Atheists give for getting rid of religion. They are likely shared by past dictators, as Mao and C. Hitchens share the opinion that religion is poison:

"Temporary" acts speed things up, but as speed is of the essence, methods to that end become SOP:
"Hitchens, a former Marxist, provides the insight that humanists who are anti-authority support authoritarian government actions because ‘temporary expedients considered necessary for the achievement of a primary goal are easily transformed into dogma that cannot be questioned lest the attainment of the goal be jeopardized’ .... This explains why so many atheists in power have committed horrific crimes in pursuit of an ideal."
-
"[L]acking belief in any spiritual reality, the atheist’s ambitions are limited to the material realm. These ambitions tend to take the form of reshaping society to fit their own vision of utopia; when the atheist meets resistance to his vision, or the limitations of human sinfulness and fallibility render the vision impossible to realise, the atheist may try to force cooperation by using violence, since he does not recognize any higher moral law."
-
Hitchens own path to atrocity, not explicitly countered by anyone here:

They are [claiimed to be] untrue:
"I am not even an atheist so much as an antitheist; I not only maintain that all religions are versions of the same untruth, but I hold that the influence of churches and the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful." C. Hitchens (C.H.)

NOTE THE "ALL" in there.
-
They are evil and a threat:
"I mean your preachments are evil and are a direct threat to the survival of civilization. If you don't consider me an enemy, then you don't know an enemy when you see or hear one.” C.H.
-
Being evil by holding evil beliefs the people who hold these beliefs are not worth our concern:
"I'm not going to love them. You go love them if you want. Don't love them on my behalf. I'll get on with killing them, destroying them, erasing them. And you can love them. But the idea that you ought to love them is not a moral idea at all. It's a wicked idea." C.H.
-
Past actions along these lines are to be supported and praised:
"One of Lenin's great achievements, in my opinion, is to create a secular Russia."
C.H.
["The Communist Party destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed, incarcerated and executed religious leaders, ..." - Wikipedia.]
-
It is a method that will work:
"When the side of Jihad said, can we take these casualties? When they worry, have we alienated the people? … They will get to the stage where they realize they have made a mistake, all the evidence in Iraq is that al-Qaeda have already discredited and disgraced themselves, and it's a matter now of just hunting down and killing them, which I think is a pleasure and a duty." C.H.
-
Because believers are psychopaths and murderers:
“I think the enemies of civilisation should be beaten and killed and defeated, and I don’t make any apology for it… We can’t live on the same planet as them, and I’m glad because I don’t want to. I don’t want to breathe the same air as these psychopaths and murderers… It’s them or me. I’m very happy about this because I know it will be them.” C.H.
-
["we can't...," because "I don't want to..." Remember, C.H. saw no difference between religions ("the effect of religious belief, is positively harmful"). They are all the same evil to him and others, and killing religious people WILL get rid of religion C.H. reasons.]
---
Atheists have no problem with hypocrisy: Dawkins called Marxism a "state religion," yet sat down at a table with a Marxist (C.H.) to talk about all they agree on.
-
Even those that do not hold extremist POV are a threat to civilization, Dawkins REASONS, because they "make the world safe for extremists:"
“What I do think about the difference, and let's leave out Muslims specifically, but the difference between moderate religious people and extremist fundamentalists is that although of course it's only a tiny minority of any sect which is ever going to get violent or horrible, there is a sense in which the moderate, nice religious people — nice Christians, nice Muslims — make the world safe for extremists." Dawkins, "The God Delusion"
---
Religion makes rational communication impossible:
“Religious faith represents so uncompromising a misuse of the power of our minds that it forms a kind of perverse, cultural singularity—a vanishing point beyond which rational discourse proves impossible.” Sam Harris (S.H.)
-
Freedom of Religion and Religious Tolerance is driving humanity to destruction:
"There are, in other words, religious moderates and religious extremists, and their various passions and projects should not be confused. However, religious moderates are themselves the bearers of a terrible dogma: they imagine that the path to peace will be paved once each of us has learned to respect the unjustified beliefs of others. I hope to show that the very ideal of religious tolerance-born of the notion that every human being should be free to believe whatever he wants about God-is one of the principal forces driving us toward the abyss." - S.H.
-
Because Science has provided so many tools for destruction:
"We can no longer ignore the fact that billions of our neighbors believe in the metaphysics of martyrdom, or in the literal truth of the book of Revelation, or any of the other fantastical notions that have lurked in the minds of the faithful for millennia—because our neighbors are now armed with chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. There is no doubt that these developments mark the terminal phase of our credulity. Words like “God” and “Allah” must go the way of “Apollo” and “Baal” or they will unmake our world." - S.H.
-
"To someone reading the passage in context, it should be clear that I am discussing the link between belief and behavior. The fact that belief determines behavior is what makes certain beliefs so dangerous. - S.H.
-
"The link between belief and behavior raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. *Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense....We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas." - S.H.
-
Now some Atheists will dismiss this reasoning, but they revert to an argument they reject everywhere else.:
“New Atheists like Dawkins will point out that nothing in New Atheism necessitates violence, and that many principles of the movement directly oppose it; they should be used to this kind of statement by now, as it’s precisely the argument they encounter and dismiss time and time again when it issues from religious faiths.”
-
An anonymous Atheist stated online:
"religion is the cause of most of the suffering of mankind. us vs them....mine is better than yours....etc. ...
we are one species....one world and that which serves to divide us or makes our lives less secure only serves to make us weaker and eventually guarantees our demise."

Which is EXACTLY what Atheists do. You claim, "mine is better than yours." As you have treated all religions as one group, I have treated all Atheists as one group, and strangely, you get all pissy.
With all the Atheists claims about "Christianity holding back science, being oppressive, etc., you refuse to recognize that the USA has advance Science more and been freer than the TWO Atheists Super Powers. Even before you Atheists took power in those TWO nations, Christendom was advancing science, technology and society and, for the most part, praising those that did it.

Does Atheism have leaders? As another anonymous online Atheist said:
"Yes, by leaders I mean thinkers whose works have inspired social movements and whose words and arguments are repeated by their millions of followers. Dawkins definetly fits this definition as one of the most well-known and instrumental figures of the New Atheism movement."

It's late, goodnight.
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08-10-2017, 01:23 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(07-10-2017 12:51 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  This little tall tale was added later to John, who never wrote that. It is not found in earliest manuscripts of John. But was added into some early manuscripts of Matthew. Are you not aware of this? Most true Bible experts are quite aware of this fact. It's unlikely that this littler story occurred or Jesus said anything here.

Got a reference on that?
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08-10-2017, 01:26 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(07-10-2017 01:17 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Have you made up your mind about killing every living thing on earth, all Canaanites (including cattle, poor, innocent bovines), every egyptian firstborn, etc. or are you still loking for verses to apologize that?

Did you find a (reasonable) answer to this in the meantime? If so, why did it take you this long? I think its a pretty simple question with a simple answer.

Why is the subject of Atheists' Morality dependent on what happened to the Canaanites, their possessions, Egyptian firstborn, etc.? You're combining the Tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy), non sequitur and red herring fallacies. Creative, yet still a failure on your part. It's irrelevant to my question.

Did you find a (reasonable) answer to my question? it's a basic question.
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08-10-2017, 02:16 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
FarSeeker is employing the "wear them down tactic" Dodgy Just type screeds and screeds, eventually everyone will lose interest and you can declare victory. And rush back to your church and tell them how you witnessed to the atheists Rolleyes

Congratulations fucker, give yourself a big pat on the back. You managed to be so goddamn terrible that no one wants to talk to you. That surely counts as a victory for Christ.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-10-2017, 02:19 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-10-2017 01:26 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 01:17 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Have you made up your mind about killing every living thing on earth, all Canaanites (including cattle, poor, innocent bovines), every egyptian firstborn, etc. or are you still loking for verses to apologize that?

Did you find a (reasonable) answer to this in the meantime? If so, why did it take you this long? I think its a pretty simple question with a simple answer.

Why is the subject of Atheists' Morality dependent on what happened to the Canaanites, their possessions, Egyptian firstborn, etc.? You're combining the Tu quoque (appeal to hypocrisy), non sequitur and red herring fallacies. Creative, yet still a failure on your part. It's irrelevant to my question.

Did you find a (reasonable) answer to my question? it's a basic question.

Why are you so obsessed with accusing me of (while i dont have at all) trying to apply the tu quoque fallacy to you? Does that mean you indeed think what your god did there was, in fact, moral? If this wasnt the case, i wouldt be able to accuse you (which i havent...yet) of "tu quoque" and you neednt be worried about me doing it, right? So i take that as a tacit admission from you, although it is beyond me why you think your morals are so superior, when you dont even dare to publicly make the most basic moral evaluation based on your view.

You want to talk about atheists´morals? Well, this atheist thinks its immoral to kill all Canaanites, their possessions (animals), Egyptian firstborn, or every living thing on the planet. What about you?

Oh, and i noticed you were exposed as a quote mining liar (about the Hitchens quote) a second time since i did that months ago. Yet, you didnt bother to apologize or even acknowledge, yet. So why should we bother to engage with yet more of your (mined?) quotes. Sorry, i have more important things to do than doing some meticulous research just to catch you in yet another lie.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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08-10-2017, 06:55 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-10-2017 01:23 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(07-10-2017 12:51 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  This little tall tale was added later to John, who never wrote that. It is not found in earliest manuscripts of John. But was added into some early manuscripts of Matthew. Are you not aware of this? Most true Bible experts are quite aware of this fact. It's unlikely that this littler story occurred or Jesus said anything here.

Got a reference on that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_...n_adultery

Google is your friend

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
- Thomas Jefferson

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08-10-2017, 07:24 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-10-2017 06:55 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(08-10-2017 01:23 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Got a reference on that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_...n_adultery

Google is your friend

Bart Ehrman:
https://ehrmanblog.org/the-woman-taken-i...s-version/

Richard Carrier quoting multiple biblical scholars:
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/10064

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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