How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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06-08-2017, 04:24 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(04-08-2017 06:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Would you prefer "shoo, fly"?

Because I could say that too.

"Meh...whatever..."
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06-08-2017, 04:37 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(04-08-2017 12:56 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  ...
With Atheism, mass-murder is not immoral, it's just a rational choice. You can choose to commit it, or you can choose not to. Either is permitted because one Atheist cannot force their moral precepts on another; they don't have a warrant to do so.

Methinks you are confusing atheism with moral nihilism.

Drinking Beverage

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06-08-2017, 06:07 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 12:08 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Please give your definition of atheism.
Please show how not believing any god claim is related to morality.
Please explain how the big flood (killing all babies in egypt, all Canaanites, etc, pp.) is not mass murder.

Ah, a "Tu quoque" fallacy.
Did i make a claim? Did i present any premises or conclusions? Right, i didnt. So stop pretending i did.
So, if you think theses things werent mass murder, you surely have a nice rationalisation at hand, do you?
Alternatively if you do think those actions were mass murder, you dont have to give a rationalistation of course.

(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  bla bla bla
Nice sidestepping....but back to my humble requests (based on your claims). in case you forgot what you wrote, please allow me to repeat your claims for you:
FarSeeker Wrote:With Atheism, mass-murder is not immoral, it's just a rational choice
Please give your definition of atheism.
Please show how atheism is related to morality.


(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  3) The Bible explains The Flood and its reason explicitly. I don't need to explain any further to a person who can read: Genesis 6:5.
Nice non-answer. Now lets try an actual answer, shall we?
Was the big flood mass murder? Its a simple "yes/no" question. I am not interested in what the bible or anyone else "thinks" or "reasons", i am interested in what you think: Yes or no? In case of the latter please let me repeat my humble request from my last post: Please explain how the big flood is not mass murder.


(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  The Bible does not say babies, only first born: Exodus 11:5. My brother is a first born and over 50 yrs old. Do try to do a little research before posting about the dogma you've been indoctrinated with.
Ok, let me rephrase my question (as if it would make any difference to the question at hand): Please explain how killing all/every first born in Egypt is not mass murder. Drinking Beverage

(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Canaanites,? see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
Please provide evidence that Canaanites were "thugs".
and while you are at it
please explain how killing all of them according to Deuteronomy 20:16 "...thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" is not mass murder. Drinking Beverage

In the meantime i will be back in my library reading Marx´ "Das Kapital", Maos "Red Bible", Hitlers "Mein Kampf" or some of Pol Pots speeches. You can find me there, if you still have questions regarding my requests. Smartass

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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06-08-2017, 06:19 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 03:14 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 07:20 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Oh let me play this game too! Pat Robertson isn't a fan of my denomination, so let's see:
[cut]

Facepalm
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is an Atheist using a "Gish Gallop."
Dodgy Such a wonder of hypocrisy it is.

Facepalm
No, that was a theist disagreeing with you.

(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  3) The Bible explains The Flood and its reason explicitly. I don't need to explain any further to a person who can read: Genesis 6:5.

You do if you want to convince this person who has read it many times that the explanation given is justification for the actions undertaken. We are supposedly talking about an omnipotent god who is being forced to undo some of his creation because it got out of hand by causing suffering om a massive scale to the guilty and innocent alike.

Quote:The Bible does not say babies, only first born: Exodus 11:5. My brother is a first born and over 50 yrs old. Do try to do a little research before posting about the dogma you've been indoctrinated with.

So while atheists hear first-born and picture innocent babies you picture guilty 50-year-olds and that makes it OK to slaughter them all... atheists may be guilty of some hyperbole but they are trying to make the point that your god once again targeted innocents in order to undo part of his creation that again got out of hand... the character of god as portrayed in the bible is an incompetent bumbler with a vicious temper and, while not all atheists have what I consider to be good moral systems, theists who truly believe these acts are moral have no right to criticize anybody regarding morality.

Quote:Canaanites,? see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

Some probably were but, again, you are using an incredibly broad brush. If you really think that the Hebrews were model citizens and the rest of the surrounding peoples were nothing but thugs that deserved to die you have again lost the right to critique anybody else's morality.

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  If C. Hitchens' opinion of what is moral and not moral doesn't matter, then why does yours? Consider

It doesn't, except where others agree with my opinion based whatever reasons I offer. Many atheists have opinions on morality that I disagree with. The problem with religious "morality" is that it is never based on anything except divine command theory which is an irrational basis.

Atheism does not offer a basis for morality. That isn't what it is. It would be like saying that because I don't believe unicorns exist it becomes OK to steal. When you stop pretending that you have an invisible friend who gives you the answers it becomes necessary to figure out how to live for yourself and different people choose different foundations. Some of them are better than others IMO but the one thing that is obvious is that religion doesn't offer anything in this area.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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06-08-2017, 09:22 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
I see. Because God saddled us all with original sin, we all became evil. Now God, from day one could have said to himself, "Original sin makes people evil, therefor, because original sin destroys man's free will and creates moral evil, I will eliminate original sin."

Your theology paints God as stupid, savage and incompetent. Is that what you want atheists to believe about you and Christianity?

As to genocide and mass murder, God commanded lots of that in the OT. "Leave none that breatheth." And through history, Christianity has been just happy to do that. We had for example the religious wars in Europe and the genocide of North America's Indians. In 1939 the last German census before WW2 showed 95% of Germans claimed to be Christians. The mass genocides of Hitler's Germany that occurred and were planned but were not carried out because of Germany's defeat
demonstrate just how murderous and distorted Christianity can become.

Experts tell us that repeal of ACA will cause 10,000 deaths each year, but the oh so very Christian GOP congress critters are still pushing for that. Who cares if 10,000 people each year die as a result. Not 47 GOP Senators. Not an atheist in the bunch.

As for the claim the Canaanites were "thugs". When God supposedly ordered the Israelites to commit mass murders and genocides, they became the thugs. And God was the greatest thug of all.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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06-08-2017, 09:51 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 03:14 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Facepalm
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is an Atheist using a "Gish Gallop."
Dodgy Such a wonder of hypocrisy it is.

Hardly a gish gallop my friend. I was doing the exact same thing you did with Hitchens, but with Pat Robertson, to try and show you how it doesn't work. The Pat isn't a big fan of my denomination, however, so I didn't feel as bad using him as an example of our own side being idiots at times as well.

And I'm not an atheist, I believe in Jesus Christ. You should have been able to get that much from a basic reading comprehension ability when I mentioned how Pat Robertson wasn't a fan of my denomination in the post you fallaciously attacked me for. I guess third grade level context clues elude you unfortunately.

As a general rule, I try to give some basic courtesy to fellow believers, a level of doubt, if you would, about "maybe this person isn't used to engaging with atheists". Which I admit I didn't fully extend to you, because you were already rude enough to necro a post from 5 years ago to smear the name and reputation of a dead man, even if I don't agree with him. However, you've made certain now, that I will not be extending you my usual level of "he just is new" doubt that I normally do.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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06-08-2017, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 10:27 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 04:37 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 12:56 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  ...
With Atheism, mass-murder is not immoral, it's just a rational choice. You can choose to commit it, or you can choose not to. Either is permitted because one Atheist cannot force their moral precepts on another; they don't have a warrant to do so.

Methinks you are confusing atheism with moral nihilism.

Drinking Beverage

When I was posting at the Amazon atheist forum, we used to get these kinds of people dropping in all the time. They thought they knew something about atheism, and immediately made the argument "Atheism is obviously wrong because of XYZ." Oddly, they seemed to think they were doing atheists some service by calling us immoral, nihilistic baby-killers, or whatever.

In my experience they can't stand having their strawman and guilty-by-association arguments questioned, so I'll just place FarSeeker on ignore.
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06-08-2017, 10:57 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Oh great. Now he's thrown Sam Harris into his secret cabal of would-be mass murderers. I hear Dan Dennett and Christopher Hitchens are planning to drop a nuclear device on the Vatican.

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06-08-2017, 12:07 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
This "Farseeker" character is getting a little too close to our operation...how does he know all this? Do we have a mole? We can't afford to have ours plans for world domination upset when we're so close...anybody think we can just pay him off?

EDIT: OH FUCK I THOUGHT THIS WAS THE PRIVATE ROOM MODERATOR QUICK CANCEL CANCEL CANCEL THIS POST!!!!!

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06-08-2017, 01:43 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 06:18 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

From reading your posts, you seem to wish painting a person like myself with a Christopher Hitchen's sized brush? Consider

Mr Hitchen's said many things I agree with and I think he got right.

He also said many things I disagree and many things I think he simply got wrong.

So... perhaps you'd like to engage with the many stripes/colors/types of nonbelievers here abouts?

Rather than invoking the ghost of Hitchen's past?

Wow! Reframing and hijacking the subject of my post,
nice try. Dodgy

The claim was that there is no tyranny in C. Hitchens' stand:
Chas:
"Enemy, yes. Totalitarian, no."
I posted to disagree with that.
But so be it.

When Atheists advocates mass-murder (after having done a great deal of it) and the subject is brought up, it's "invoking ghosts," but when talking about Christians, it's "how they destroy civilization." Facepalm What next, Oh King of the Double-Standard.

Unfortunately, this isn't a position held solely by C. Hitchens, but is endemic in the Atheist movement, see my quote from Russel and the following about another “New Atheist" (by Atheists):

"And that’s what we’ve got. We’ve got Slippery Sam Harris cooly talking about torture and nuclear bombings and racial profiling, all with a molecule-thin veneer of deniability to allow him to deny, while drawing in fans who have no problem with racism and war. We had Christopher Hitchens who…let me tell you about a recent argument over Hitchens. It shows how little reality matters to so many of our fellow atheists."
https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/...z4ouzMCpR7
[As for the Freethought blogs: Yes folks, there are a few Atheists who "get it", just not you!]

With support for Hitchens from many Atheists:
http://imgur.com/gallery/92XviAC

and then:

http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1247287
http://quotesjunk.com/i-can-make-the-arg...-jillette/

Along with objective refutation:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/mu...-1.2110661

While some Atheists are "getting it," others like yourself are utterly oblivious to the Authoritarian aspects among fellow Atheists. While Atheists utterly LOVE painting Christians with the Nazi swastika, they claim that Marxists were "no True Atheists," because of some technicality, all the while calling the self-proclaimed Marxist C. Hitchens a “New Atheist.”

OTOH, some claim that those Atheists don't represent the majority of Atheists. That is a duplicitous claim because they do not allow the same to be said of those claiming to be Christians. Equally duplicitous is the fact that Christianity has specific teachings, while Atheism has none. So while e.g. Hitler violated numerous teachings of Christianity, Lenin and cohorts violated nothing of Atheism, even to the point of doing what they found Reasonable and Rational. If you do take that position, so be it, but you then have the problem of proving your view is rationally and morally superior to that of Hitchens, Lenin and cohorts. Those types of arguments always end in he-said-she-said arguments and go nowhere.

The point is not whether you disagree with C. Hitchens. Your problem is the triple whammy of you having to prove 1) your opinion is correct, 2) why and how a superior Atheist intellect as C. Hitchens, Harris and Bertrand Russell could get it so exceedingly wrong, and 3) why no one had the courage to challenged him while he was alive and able to respond. I mean challenging Hitchens now that he's dead is kind of a cowardly and jerk (I am being polite here) move.

Atheists have made it a dogma of theirs that Christians have done bad things in the past; all the while ignoring the details to gain points with their polemics (e.g. The Crusades: As if 450 yrs of attacks ain't enough provocation for you?! They didn't conquer everything from Mecca to Spain by going door-to-door).

Those Atheists who weren't Marxists or Marx supporters were all but silent while the Marxist nations around the world oppressed and committed atrocities. While Christians in those nations suffered, Atheists metaphorically fiddled. This continues today while your fellow Atheists in China abuse the Human Rights of religious people.

It's an unwritten Atheist Rule: anytime anyone claiming to be a Christian does evil, it is an imputation against Christianity, nothing Good done by Christians can be ascribed to Christianity. While at the same time, anything Bad done by an Atheist cannot be an imputation to Atheism, while everything good done by Atheists can be ascribed to Atheism. It's a blatant and bigoted double-standard

If C. Hitchens' opinion of what is moral and not moral doesn't matter, then why does yours? Consider

Newsflash:

Hitchens never claimed to speak for anyone but himself. Same goes for Dawkins. Harris and Dennett, none of these public figures speak for all atheists. I do not speak for all atheists or even secular humanists. I only speak for myself.

You can shoo anytime now.

All atheism is, is a lack of belief in god(s). End of story.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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