How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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06-08-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(04-08-2017 12:56 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  With Atheism, mass-murder is not immoral, it's just a rational choice. You can choose to commit it, or you can choose not to. Either is permitted because one Atheist cannot force their moral precepts on another; they don't have a warrant to do so.

Since you're not an atheist, and since despite your strenuous attempts to imply that we have religious texts and religious leaders, we do not have either of these things, maybe you should hold off on telling us what our position on any topic is?

As in why the fuck do you evangelical fuckwits always come storming in here and tell us shit about ourselves? Facepalm *I* know my moral beliefs, you don't.

You are in fact completely incorrect. Religion is not required in order for mass-murder and other crimes to be outlawed, or even as a logical basis for such laws. It's perfectly fine for us to make laws based on consensus through democratic institutions such as parliament/congress etc. A majority of atheists, as with any majority of pragmatic humans interested in getting along and moving society forward, will recognise that outlawing stupid shit like killing huge numbers of people is a bright idea ™.

Anyway, for a guy who condemns mass murder, are you aware of all the times in the Bible where God specifically orders genocide? Pretty awkward for your argument eh?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-08-2017, 02:17 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
PS: "Either is permitted because one Atheist cannot force their moral precepts on another; they don't have a warrant to do so." ??? Are you implying that as a religious idiot you DO have a warrant to force your beliefs on people? You can fuck right off with that attitude.

Tell your God if he wants to chat he can do so any time. Just HE should pitch up, not some fool claiming to represent him. We've got plenty of those and none of them has a coherent message, including you.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-08-2017, 04:21 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
He is even more incoherent and stupid as you may (already) think, Morondog.
Look at how he tries ot defend killing "firstborns" in egypt:

(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  The Bible does not say babies, only first born: Exodus 11:5. My brother is a first born and over 50 yrs old. Do try to do a little research before posting about the dogma you've been indoctrinated with.

Now, lets have a closer look at Exodus 11:5 (bolded mine)
Exodus 11:5 Wrote:Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.
I am all curious how he will rationalize the mass murder of all those calves sorry, fistborn cows and bulls. I wonder if their hearts were hardened as well? Maybe they blocked jews from heading towards the promised land and commit genocide on Canaanites, sorry Canaanite thugs.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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06-08-2017, 05:19 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 04:21 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  He is even more incoherent and stupid as you may (already) think, Morondog.
Look at how he tries ot defend killing "firstborns" in egypt:

(06-08-2017 04:13 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  The Bible does not say babies, only first born: Exodus 11:5. My brother is a first born and over 50 yrs old. Do try to do a little research before posting about the dogma you've been indoctrinated with.

Now, lets have a closer look at Exodus 11:5 (bolded mine)
Exodus 11:5 Wrote:Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.
I am all curious how he will rationalize the mass murder of all those calves sorry, fistborn cows and bulls. I wonder if their hearts were hardened as well? Maybe they blocked jews from heading towards the promised land and commit genocide on Canaanites, sorry Canaanite thugs.

The interpretation that includes people (and cattle) of all ages might be worse. It means that many were widowed when their adult spouses died and many were orphaned when both parents were killed along with their oldest sibling. It wouldn't have just wiped out part of generation but would have wiped out a large swath of the population.

Since the god arranged for the Hebrews to go to Egypt in the first place the entire story is just disgusting from start to finish.

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06-08-2017, 05:24 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
I think we should all make an effort to put our friend's mind at ease. Who will take the "I promise not to mass murder" pledge? It's all the rage on the "internet." I'll start:

Hi I'm Jerry. It's been 6 months since my last mass murder. Of course "mass" is kinda subjective...anyway since becoming an atheist all I think of day and night is mass murder. But I say to myself "Hey Mr. Handsome, I know you want to mass murder. But DON'T. Not cool. Not cool." And then I say to myself "Hey Mr. Handsome, is that really how you refer to yourself? That's not cool either." So I'm going to make it official right now: I hereby PLEDGE to not mass murder. I'll work on the Mr. Handsome thing later.

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06-08-2017, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2017 06:08 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
I just got back from my murderers anonymous meeting. We atheists admitted we were pretty close this week.

*Starts to think about murder.

*Hyperventilates in order to overcome insatiable killing urges.

People are friends, not victims. People are friends, not victims. People are friends, not victims. People are friends, not victims.

Maybe I'll try calling on God, just this once.

Cosmo: God, please help me to overcome these urges to kill.
God: Lol. I've killed millions. Hell I got babies I allowed to be born in Africa that'll be alive for like a week. Why you asking me to help you with that?
Cosmo: ... Touché my Lord. Touché.

~ The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you ~
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06-08-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
I'm afraid I can't promise not to engage in mass killings. Just yesterday I came home to find a line of ants marching across the kitchen counter and into the sink. The carnage was incredible although blood loss was kept to a minimum.

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06-08-2017, 08:40 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 06:18 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

From reading your posts, you seem to wish painting a person like myself with a Christopher Hitchen's sized brush? Consider

Mr Hitchen's said many things I agree with and I think he got right.

He also said many things I disagree and many things I think he simply got wrong.

So... perhaps you'd like to engage with the many stripes/colors/types of nonbelievers here abouts?

Rather than invoking the ghost of Hitchen's past?

Wow! Reframing and hijacking the subject of my post,
nice try. Dodgy

The claim was that there is no tyranny in C. Hitchens' stand:
Chas:
"Enemy, yes. Totalitarian, no."
I posted to disagree with that.
But so be it.

When Atheists advocates mass-murder (after having done a great deal of it) and the subject is brought up, it's "invoking ghosts," but when talking about Christians, it's "how they destroy civilization." Facepalm What next, Oh King of the Double-Standard.

Unfortunately, this isn't a position held solely by C. Hitchens, but is endemic in the Atheist movement, see my quote from Russel and the following about another “New Atheist" (by Atheists):

"And that’s what we’ve got. We’ve got Slippery Sam Harris cooly talking about torture and nuclear bombings and racial profiling, all with a molecule-thin veneer of deniability to allow him to deny, while drawing in fans who have no problem with racism and war. We had Christopher Hitchens who…let me tell you about a recent argument over Hitchens. It shows how little reality matters to so many of our fellow atheists."
https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/...z4ouzMCpR7
[As for the Freethought blogs: Yes folks, there are a few Atheists who "get it", just not you!]

With support for Hitchens from many Atheists:
http://imgur.com/gallery/92XviAC

and then:

http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1247287
http://quotesjunk.com/i-can-make-the-arg...-jillette/

Along with objective refutation:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/mu...-1.2110661

While some Atheists are "getting it," others like yourself are utterly oblivious to the Authoritarian aspects among fellow Atheists. While Atheists utterly LOVE painting Christians with the Nazi swastika, they claim that Marxists were "no True Atheists," because of some technicality, all the while calling the self-proclaimed Marxist C. Hitchens a “New Atheist.”

OTOH, some claim that those Atheists don't represent the majority of Atheists. That is a duplicitous claim because they do not allow the same to be said of those claiming to be Christians. Equally duplicitous is the fact that Christianity has specific teachings, while Atheism has none. So while e.g. Hitler violated numerous teachings of Christianity, Lenin and cohorts violated nothing of Atheism, even to the point of doing what they found Reasonable and Rational. If you do take that position, so be it, but you then have the problem of proving your view is rationally and morally superior to that of Hitchens, Lenin and cohorts. Those types of arguments always end in he-said-she-said arguments and go nowhere.

The point is not whether you disagree with C. Hitchens. Your problem is the triple whammy of you having to prove 1) your opinion is correct, 2) why and how a superior Atheist intellect as C. Hitchens, Harris and Bertrand Russell could get it so exceedingly wrong, and 3) why no one had the courage to challenged him while he was alive and able to respond. I mean challenging Hitchens now that he's dead is kind of a cowardly and jerk (I am being polite here) move.

Atheists have made it a dogma of theirs that Christians have done bad things in the past; all the while ignoring the details to gain points with their polemics (e.g. The Crusades: As if 450 yrs of attacks ain't enough provocation for you?! They didn't conquer everything from Mecca to Spain by going door-to-door).

Those Atheists who weren't Marxists or Marx supporters were all but silent while the Marxist nations around the world oppressed and committed atrocities. While Christians in those nations suffered, Atheists metaphorically fiddled. This continues today while your fellow Atheists in China abuse the Human Rights of religious people.

It's an unwritten Atheist Rule: anytime anyone claiming to be a Christian does evil, it is an imputation against Christianity, nothing Good done by Christians can be ascribed to Christianity. While at the same time, anything Bad done by an Atheist cannot be an imputation to Atheism, while everything good done by Atheists can be ascribed to Atheism. It's a blatant and bigoted double-standard

If C. Hitchens' opinion of what is moral and not moral doesn't matter, then why does yours? Consider

That's actually a pretty well said reason that we shouldn't ever blindly trust other people. We're all just apes, after all.

Atheism has no better humanist value than religion if history is our guide. That can be effectively argued, of course, so can the converse of that argument.

So after all of that on and on, you have successfully argued that people can be shitty. Good for you.

What is your point?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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07-08-2017, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2017 10:43 AM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Hello again!

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Wow! Reframing and hijacking the subject of my post,
nice try.

Sorry, at the time I was doing my best to reply to yourself using my phone screen and during breaks at work.

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  The claim was that there is no tyranny in C. Hitchens' stand:
Chas:
"Enemy, yes. Totalitarian, no."
I posted to disagree with that.
But so be it.

*Nods* True and I'm sure yourself and Mr Chas will/have had a wonderful conversation about such since then.

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  When Atheists advocates mass-murder (after having done a great deal of it) and the subject is brought up, it's "invoking ghosts," but when talking about Christians, it's "how they destroy civilization." What next, Oh King of the Double-Standard.

Consider

Could you please give an example of a 'Group' of athests who might condonemass-murder?

Um.. I do think there's a slight conflation of terms in the above.

Individuals can be what ever phylosophical bent they want. Groups of people tend to band together and do things as a 'Group'.

So... 'Groups' of people who were/are definitely Christians have most certainly done bad things.

You have to reach a good distance to 'Group' people who are atheist together for anything done as/in such as.

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Unfortunately, this isn't a position held solely by C. Hitchens, but is endemic in the Atheist movement, see my quote from Russel and the following about another “New Atheist" (by Atheists):

"And that’s what we’ve got. We’ve got Slippery Sam Harris cooly talking about torture and nuclear bombings and racial profiling, all with a molecule-thin veneer of deniability to allow him to deny, while drawing in fans who have no problem with racism and war. We had Christopher Hitchens who…let me tell you about a recent argument over Hitchens. It shows how little reality matters to so many of our fellow atheists."
https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/...z4ouzMCpR7
[As for the Freethought blogs: Yes folks, there are a few Atheists who "get it", just not you!]

With support for Hitchens from many Atheists:
http://imgur.com/gallery/92XviAC

and then:

http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1247287
http://quotesjunk.com/i-can-make-the-arg...-jillette/

Along with objective refutation:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/mu...-1.2110661

Like in the above quotes. I'm sure others have already posted things done by recognized as 'Groups' of many religious persuasion. Such as the many cases of maladjusted behavious conducted by Catholic clergy.

'Groups' of atheists? Not so much.

Posting the thoughts of individuals (Mr Grevais and Mr Jillet) still don't make a 'Group'.

Next, perhaps, you'll be trotting out the good old ".. Worship evolution at Proffessor Dawkin's feet." jibe.

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  While some Atheists are "getting it," others like yourself are utterly oblivious to the Authoritarian aspects among fellow Atheists. While Atheists utterly LOVE painting Christians with the Nazi swastika, they claim that Marxists were "no True Atheists," because of some technicality, all the while calling the self-proclaimed Marxist C. Hitchens a “New Atheist.”

*Nods* Yes, yes groups of people (Atheists included) do indeed love to paint such pictures. They can also provide pictures as/of evidence inditing the Catholic's involvment with the afore mentioned political party. So there is that. Consider

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  OTOH, some claim that those Atheists don't represent the majority of Atheists. That is a duplicitous claim because they do not allow the same to be said of those claiming to be Christians. Equally duplicitous is the fact that Christianity has specific teachings, while Atheism has none. So while e.g. Hitler violated numerous teachings of Christianity, Lenin and cohorts violated nothing of Atheism, even to the point of doing what they found Reasonable and Rational. If you do take that position, so be it, but you then have the problem of proving your view is rationally and morally superior to that of Hitchens, Lenin and cohorts. Those types of arguments always end in he-said-she-said arguments and go nowhere.

But again you are conflating a known, definite, "Have their own recognized country", "Have their own, multi-government recognized financial institution" that IS the Roman-catholic church with... pretty much a very nebulous amount of individuals....

Consider

They truly aren't the same thing, you know?

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  The point is not whether you disagree with C. Hitchens.

Cool! Thumbsup We won't mention him in relation to our conversation any more. Yes

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Your problem is the triple whammy of you having to prove 1) your opinion is correct, 2) why and how a superior Atheist intellect as C. Hitchens, Harris and Bertrand Russell could get it so exceedingly wrong, and 3) why no one had the courage to challenged him while he was alive and able to respond. I mean challenging Hitchens now that he's dead is kind of a cowardly and jerk (I am being polite here) move.

Okay then:

1) My opinion on the matter of any diety is simply yhat, as currently presented, there seems to bo no objective or verifiable evidence for such any thing. Personal revelation does not count as 'Obvective' to me. The Sun is an objective thing. When a person can point to any diety in the same way then I shall consider such. Yes

2) Because even any 'Superior' people can get many/anything wrong. Einstein was a genius in his field. I don't think he could fix a tire... Consider

3) People did and (Such as yourself) still do challenge Mr hitchens. As well as Mr Russel... Pretty much the whole 'We're having a discussion right now' is a challenge to such. Consider

I don't think it's cowardly or a jerk thing to question that which has been said by others in the past, even should they be deceased.

Perhaps you're referring to your attitude towards the desceased instead? Consider

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Atheists have made it a dogma of theirs that Christians have done bad things in the past; all the while ignoring the details to gain points with their polemics (e.g. The Crusades: As if 450 yrs of attacks ain't enough provocation for you?! They didn't conquer everything from Mecca to Spain by going door-to-door).

Consider I'm... truly not sure of your point here.

Are you denying the events of the Crusades? Are you denying the reasons for why the Crusades were insitgated? Were the Crusades not insitgated by Christians? Are you perhaps annoyed that people coflate 'Christian' with 'Roman Catholic'?

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Those Atheists who weren't Marxists or Marx supporters were all but silent while the Marxist nations around the world oppressed and committed atrocities. While Christians in those nations suffered, Atheists metaphorically fiddled. This continues today while your fellow Atheists in China abuse the Human Rights of religious people.

Laughat

No

There were atheists in the fox-holes of Korea during the fighting that partitioned said country. Just as a simple counter example off the top of my head, so no. Your above assertion doesn't work.

Again you are conflating a political 'Group' which are 'Communist' (Of a certain bent) and then using that as a large brush to try and paint the amagamation that are those who espous atheism as the same.

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  It's an unwritten Atheist Rule: anytime anyone claiming to be a Christian does evil, it is an imputation against Christianity, nothing Good done by Christians can be ascribed to Christianity. While at the same time, anything Bad done by an Atheist cannot be an imputation to Atheism, while everything good done by Atheists can be ascribed to Atheism. It's a blatant and bigoted double-standard

Again, you are conflating things.

People rail against the very obvious political and social organizatio that IS the thing such as the Roman Catholic church. People rail against the abuses that the known, obvious organization that is the Curch of England.

You pretty much have to show that any such organization of 'Atheists' exist to begin comparing things like that. Consider

(06-08-2017 03:05 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  If C. Hitchens' opinion of what is moral and not moral doesn't matter, then why does yours? Consider

A good point.

As an individual.... my opinions trully do not matter.

I have no illusions about such.

When the time comes and I put my mark upon the ballot paper... or my mark upon the referrendum paper or I have the chance to serve within my judicial system as a person chosen to judge some one of the crimes acused of them by 'A member of their peers' THEN my opinion truly will matter.

In the conversation between ourselves? It is the sharing of opinions, ideas, knowledge and such that matters between two individuals.

Very much cheers to you and yours. Smile
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07-08-2017, 10:42 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(04-08-2017 12:56 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  With Atheism, mass-murder is not immoral, it's just a rational choice. You can choose to commit it, or you can choose not to. Either is permitted because one Atheist cannot force their moral precepts on another; they don't have a warrant to do so.

Apparently it's not immoral to the biblical god either; oh I forgot, when he does it, it's cool.
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