How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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08-08-2017, 01:06 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(07-08-2017 09:33 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Is there really a difference. I keep running into "Dictionary Atheists." There seems to be one in the posts above that asked me what my definition of Atheism was. In my experience, that type of question leads to "all Atheism is the 'unbelief' in a deity." If that is all Atheism is, then there isn't Reeeeally much difference between it and nihilism.

Nice, at least one thing you have answered. But you are still asserting that unbelief in a deity equals nihilism. I bet we are all ears how you explain this to us, particularly since (most probably) not a single one of the atheists here are nihilists. But thank you for telling us we are. Thumbsup

Ohh, and there are some open questions. In your last posts you adressed my ignorance about your holy scripture too, amongst other things. Possibly you just forgot to answer, possibly you felt uncomfortable with the questions, who knows. Nevertheless i will remind you of them, before you continue your rants against nihilist heathens.

Was the big flood mass murder?
Please provide evidence that Canaanites were "thugs".
Please explain how killing all of them according to Deuteronomy 20:16 "...thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" is not mass murder.
Please explain too why killing all firstborn in Egypt isnt mass murder too.
Please explain why all their cattle had to die as well.

If, unlike nihilistic atheists, you have objective and unambiguous morals, and if, unlike me, you have read your scripture well and, unlike me, have a valid interpretation, i bet you can easily answer these, right?

See, i can read your holy text if necessary. Too bad, the more one reads, the more absurd it gets. Thats why i tend to avoid reading too much of it. I dont want to waste my time with absurditites.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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08-08-2017, 03:45 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2017 03:58 AM by Cheerful Charlie.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 12:21 AM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 11:52 PM)morondog Wrote:  There is no God.

Fast Answer (it's late):

2) Prove it.

1. God supposedly is good. A good God would want to maximize moral goodness. Thus God would create man with free will, such as God enjoys. And good moral nature such as God has. God thus is supposedly good because he has a good nature and free chooses of his own free will to do only good.

But we do not live in a Universe where such a God exists and gives us a God-like free will and God-like good nature. Thus a perfectly good God with free will who cares about us and is merciful, just and compassionate does not exist.

2. Rene Descartes claims god creates the laws, the rules, the very logic of the world. So do theistic Suppositionalists, and those theists who argue God exists from the Transcendental Argument for God. Again, God is supposed, as per revelation (The Bible, Quran and others books) perfectly good.
But if God was perfectly good he would give us free will and a good nature. Since he creates all metaphysical necessities, and the logic and laws of the Universe, there is nothing to stop God from banishing moral evil from this Universe. This God then either does not exist. Or is nor as described by revelation as caring, just, merciful compassionate. We cannot then trust any of these revelations that claim God in fact exists. Or if any God exists, naturalism trumps God's powers and abilities, and were not created by God. God then can be said to be superfluous and not as described by theists as creator of all and all powerful.

3. The world is full of cruel predation, nasty parasites, bacterial diseases and viruses, which indicates a world not created by a loving, merciful, compassionate God as described by theism. It indicates rather a Godless, ammoral world where evolution is opportunistic and has no intelligence that cares about what happens. It is a world unlike what we would expect from a good, compassionate, loving caring God. Which are attributes revelations claim for God.

There is more. But enough for this reply.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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08-08-2017, 04:19 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Nihilism. Nihilism? Let me show you nihilism. Ever since theology started, claims about God soon collapse into incoherence, self contradiction and nonsense. So the theists soon are forced into abandoning logic.

Romans 11:33
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

God then is said to be incomprehensible and inscrutable. This is the dodge used by Augustine, Luther, Calvin and may others. Via negativa. God is said to be so incomprehensible, all we can know about God comes from revelation. William of Okham, al Ghazali, Duns Scotus and many others.

So when the problems of these supposed revelations become clear, out the window with rationality and reason! This is pure intellectual nihilism. and then the word games start. I have had Christians actually argue that when the Bible says Good, it does not mean good as we understand it, but is in some way a mysterious quality that can be made to fit anything that God has done, no matter how cruel or senseless it seems to mere mortals.

Words than are treated as a big game, and theologians argue ad nauseum how to define omnipotence, omniscience at al to try to get around the self contradictions the claimed attributes of God generates.

Words like good, for many theists have no real meaning. Again, intellectual nihilism.

When one starts looking at theology with the hard, cool eye of common sense, the intellectual nihilsim of theology becomes quite clear.

Which maybe helps explain the nihilism of Christianity with it's religious wars, heresy hunts, genocides, racism, and other similar phenomenon.

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
- Voltaire

So we have 47 GOP Senators who voted to destroy ACA despite warnings from experts that this would lead to about 10,000 deaths each year in America. Not an atheist in the bunch. What sort of intellectual nihilism leads to that?

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

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08-08-2017, 06:12 AM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2017 07:45 AM by unfogged.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(07-08-2017 09:33 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  Is there really a difference. I keep running into "Dictionary Atheists." There seems to be one in the posts above that asked me what my definition of Atheism was. In my experience, that type of question leads to "all Atheism is the 'unbelief' in a deity." If that is all Atheism is, then there isn't Reeeeally much difference between it and nihilism.

Your conclusion does not follow the premises. Atheists can have very different beliefs about everything except the single question "Do you believe a god exists?". No god is needed to find meaning in life through other beliefs.

If anything, having to be handed a meaning by some external entity seems like it make your life more meaningless than finding one on your own. It looks to me like theism is a faster path to nihilism than atheism is.

Quote:Or is there a "Holy Book of Atheist Morals" that all Atheists must adhere to? I ask because there has been a whole hell of a lot of Atheists who have failed to hold any acceptable standard - and few who took them to task for not holding any.

"acceptable standard"? Fuck off. You do not get to define what is and is not an "acceptable standard".

Quote: How many forums can you find me where "Secular Humanists" berate Marxists for how evil their philosophy and actions are. I mean, compared to those that do the same to Christians?

Many atheists are secular humanists but they are not the same thing. You still fail to understand that once you stop following an imaginary friend you need to find your own basis for living. Secular Humanism offers a platform for many but not all atheists subscribe to that philosophy. Many theists do and are secular humanists.

Quote:Where's the "anti-Marxist" forum on "The Thinking Atheist" site?

This is a site for atheists so the primary focus is religion. If Marxism was a big problem in the lives of the members then it would undoubtedly come up more than it does. Most of the members are here because we're tired of the excessive influence religion has on our lives. Once we get religion under control we can move on to Marxism.

Quote:I mean, REALLY! I have presented, with the agreement of those present, the words of a highly intelligent Atheist calling for the mass-killing of those he calls a threat to civilization. If intelligence is the only thing that you need to be "Good Without God," then what the hell happened to C. Hitchens? Shocking

Who said intelligence is the only thing needed? It helps but I would certainly not say it was the only thing, and maybe not even the most important thing. Why do you equate "atheist" with "good without god"? Many atheists are because no god is required to be a decent person but not believing in a god doesn't automatically make you good just like believing in one doesn't.

{edited to fix quoting}

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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08-08-2017, 09:07 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(07-08-2017 11:40 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 11:10 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Actually, I think this may be the big question. If he honestly and truly believes that he's carrying out the command of Christ in the Great Commission, then he would be trying to do so with some sort of humility or desperation that your soul not be cast into eternal hellfire.
[snip]

So when someone like FarSeeker shows up and their first action is to be combative, I begin to assume it's not about spreading the Good News. Rather it's a form of ego-stroking self-congratulatory theological masturbation. He can say he went into the den of evil atheists and fought the Devil for their souls, but their hearts were hardened by the Evil One, and despite his best efforts, he failed. All without acknowledging his entire style is provacatory in nature, and not designed in the slightest to engender dialogue.

So if you don't mind, FarSeeker, why did you come in and go straight into a fight rather than into trying to explain your belief in the Lord? Because I'm at a loss, just as Morondog is, about why American Evangelicals tend to storm in here with an adversarial bent to their visit. Is it that ego thing? Is it because American Evangelicalism has embraced a very militaristic line of thought in its beliefs, and that you view yourself as a warrior engaged in Spiritual Warfare?

Also just for an aside; do you hate your mother and father? I have a Biblical reason for asking.

1) I know from previous debates with Atheists how humility is dealt with, and the taunting has only begun, as Dawkins' call for "ridicule and show contempt" instead of discussion reveals.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/...Yk9dFWGOUk
I have talked with Atheists who claim Hitchens' and Dawkins words are the results of them being secretly Christians. What chance do I have of convincing any of them to my POV?

Atheist abuse of Christians will only get worse. I don't expect a fair dialog because you would give none. I am not trying to convert you as trying to avert or lessen the coming time of tribulations and make you cognizant of what you will be seeing. If you've read the Bible like you've claimed, you know the ending does not go well for Christians; you Atheists will delight in the murder of us, again, before God has to step in Himself. Maybe, once you see the abuse start up again, maybe you will look back and say with some understanding that I was right, and in doing so save some Christians from suffering. Maybe, even though vous never did so the first time.

2) Ah! The pseudo-psychic gets it wrong again. You need to practice you crap.... craft more. You have no idea what I'm thinking outside what I've told you. I don't discuss these postings with anyone. And I do find it wearying, but it's all I can do.

3) Read the words of not just Lenin, Stalin and Mao, but those of C. Hitchens, Harris, Silverman and Dawkins. The "adversarial bent" did not begin with me. A better question is why there is no "adversarial bent" in your discussions with Marxists. You talk disparagingly about Christians, but you have no problem with Leninism and Che worship.

How much of Hitchens statements have we really discussed here? None. You're avoiding the issue with a smug attitude because you don't want to deal with them.
Go visit a Reason Rally to see Atheism's public image(the little picture icon in the upper left):
https://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comment...son_rally/
or here: http://i.imgur.com/ruuID.jpg

I'm honestly not sure if you're:
  1. A troll.
  2. Mentally ill and needing help
  3. A combination of 1 and 2
  4. Think you're representing our Lord somehow?


I've never claimed any sort of psychic powers, but now you're accusing me of "psychic...craft"? You seem to refuse to believe that I too, believe in Jesus Christ. Though I must admit to finding it hilarious to be accused of witchcraft in the 21st century.

As for how atheists respond to humility, I can count on one hand the number of times where I've been treated poorly on this forum when trying to genuinely discuss my faith. It's almost like you continue to generalize everyone with whom you disagree.

Also do remember Christ came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. So the 9th Commandment is still in full effect. Anyhow, you avoided my only actual question to you directly in my post, do you hate your mother and father? There is a Biblical reason for asking.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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08-08-2017, 09:18 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 09:07 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  ..... I can count on one hand the number of times where I've been treated poorly on this forum when trying to genuinely discuss my faith.

I can start treating you any way you like if you want... ? Blush

Tongue

Big Grin

Much cheers to you and yours Shai- ! Thumbsup
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08-08-2017, 09:25 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 09:18 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(08-08-2017 09:07 AM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  ..... I can count on one hand the number of times where I've been treated poorly on this forum when trying to genuinely discuss my faith.

I can start treating you any way you like if you want... ? Blush

Tongue

Big Grin

Much cheers to you and yours Shai- ! Thumbsup

No, that's fine, keep treating me the way you do. Wink

In all seriousness, Aliza and I seem to have no big issues here, despite being theists. And if we do, we both know we can say "Hey I don't want to discuss this" and most of the board will go "Okay." Smile

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08-08-2017, 09:27 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Hug

Heart

Big Grin

Thumbsup
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08-08-2017, 10:47 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Isnt it quite *interesting* that FarSeeker accuses all non-believers of moral nihilism, while he can (or wont?) not answer the most simple questions about moral behaviour himself?

I now asked him at least twice
Quote:Was the big flood mass murder?
Please provide evidence that Canaanites were "thugs".
Please explain how killing all of them according to Deuteronomy 20:16 "...thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth" is not mass murder.
Please explain too why killing all firstborn in Egypt isnt mass murder too.
Please explain why all their cattle had to die as well.
and he hasnt even tried to adress this.

I think i am not exaggerating in claiming that every.single.non-believer on TTA plus our resident theists wouldnt hesitate to answer, and the answers would all be the same.
Its because the people here are decent persons, and decent persons know what is moral and what is immoral/mass murder. Regardless if you are a theist or atheist, you can still be a decent person with morals, but FarSeeker seems to have (his non-answer suggests to me) decided to remove himself from this group. He has decided to try and defend the indefensible. It looks like he has decided to sacrifice his humanity and morality on the altar of worshipping the made up celestial psychopath portrayed in a 2-3000 year old script.

Thats what his non-answers suggest to me. The silence is deafening.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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08-08-2017, 11:14 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 10:47 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Thats what his non-answers suggest to me. The silence is deafening.

Give him time. Sometimes you hear an argument but it takes you years to understand it.

A lot of discussions are really about face-saving.
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