How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
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08-08-2017, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2017 01:57 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(07-08-2017 09:46 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 10:55 AM)Cosmo Wrote:  [snip]
I'm not so sure that farseeker is giving an accurate portrayal of these people's views in the first place. I feel like they're being misconstrued. Not saying I agree or disagree, but here's what they think from their own mouths.

I have given the web published articles of TWO Atheist/Humanist websites. If you have an argument ... go talk to them; their addresses are in my original post:

https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/...z4jq6qE0X6

https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/saving-...secularism

They have not left you any intelligent excuse to claim I "misconstrued" anything, and I think any such claim by you is a lame attempt to avoid seriously dealing with the problem they decry.

I don't care what they say either. I care what you say, and what the people you're quoting said. That's it. Atheists are allowed to agree or disagree on any and every issue. That's the beauty of subjectivism. We have the opportunity to disagree with a worldview, and maybe come to a consensus.

I have read a few of the works of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris, and have watched hours of their lectures and debates, and YOU misrepresent what they say. That is all. It's not up for discussion because the nature of your cherry picking is self evident to anyone who has taken the time to understand where these people are coming from. Whether I agree or disagree is a moot point. What other atheists think is a moot point in this regard as well. They're not the ones that are here cherry picking quotes. I didn't even say I agree or disagree. I just felt it necessary to call your misconstruations out. You're the one who stormed into the atheist forum and started playing the atheist's antagonist after all. Not them.

The people you're referring to are not only atheists, but also humanists. They take some hardline views against religion, because they genuinely believe that it has stifled human progress and morality. And with that main point, I do not disagree. We may vehemently disagree on other things, but with this line of thinking I am homologous.

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08-08-2017, 02:31 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
Does religion really destroy a civilization? Or does it keep that civilization from being destroyed? I think religion strengthens communities when applied properly. People should be educated on the benefits of religion and how to apply it in beneficial ways. Just look at all the Christians doing charity work around the world, wouldn't you say that's a good thing? These people have the love of God in their hearts and express that love towards people they don't even know, that's pretty cool. When was the last time you heard of an atheist doing anything for anyone?
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08-08-2017, 02:46 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 02:31 PM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  Does religion really destroy a civilization? Or does it keep that civilization from being destroyed? I think religion strengthens communities when applied properly. People should be educated on the benefits of religion and how to apply it in beneficial ways.

There is nothing that can be done through religion that can't be done without it.

Quote:Just look at all the Christians doing charity work around the world, wouldn't you say that's a good thing?

The actual charity work, yes. The forcing people to swallow their unsubstantiated claims, no.

Quote:These people have the love of God in their hearts and express that love towards people they don't even know, that's pretty cool. When was the last time you heard of an atheist doing anything for anyone?

There are many secular charities; atheists don't generally make charity contingent on listening to sermons. It's the religious that use it as a lever.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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08-08-2017, 03:02 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 02:31 PM)Angra Mainyu Wrote:  Does religion really destroy a civilization? Or does it keep that civilization from being destroyed? I think religion strengthens communities when applied properly.

What, pray, is religion, that it must be "applied", and properly at that? A burn plaster? No, wait, you burn *if* you apply it. Drinking Beverage

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08-08-2017, 05:15 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(04-08-2017 06:18 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Hello FarSeeker! Big Grin

From reading your posts, you seem to wish painting a person like myself with a Christopher Hitchen's sized brush? Consider

Mr Hitchen's said many things I agree with and I think he got right.

He also said many things I disagree and many things I think he simply got wrong.

So... perhaps you'd like to engage with the many stripes/colors/types of nonbelievers here abouts?

Rather than invoking the ghost of Hitchen's past?

Thumbsup
Revisiting your post:
1) Where and How did I paint you with my post?

2) Now, what could he have said that was wrong, in your opinion?

3) So... perhaps you'd like to engage with the many stripes/colors/types of believers, instead of your strawmen?

4) If you talk about the past of Christians and Christianity, then the ghosts of Atheism are fair game.Thumbsup
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08-08-2017, 07:31 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 05:15 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  
(04-08-2017 06:18 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

Hello FarSeeker! Big Grin

From reading your posts, you seem to wish painting a person like myself with a Christopher Hitchen's sized brush? Consider

Mr Hitchen's said many things I agree with and I think he got right.

He also said many things I disagree and many things I think he simply got wrong.

So... perhaps you'd like to engage with the many stripes/colors/types of nonbelievers here abouts?

Rather than invoking the ghost of Hitchen's past?

Thumbsup
Revisiting your post:
1) Where and How did I paint you with my post?

2) Now, what could he have said that was wrong, in your opinion?

3) So... perhaps you'd like to engage with the many stripes/colors/types of believers, instead of your strawmen?

4) If you talk about the past of Christians and Christianity, then the ghosts of Atheism are fair game.Thumbsup

Would you care to point out where he did any of those things? Also it's quite rich that you say "the many stripes/colors/types of Believers" when you fail to even recognize that I am one.

Need to think of a witty signature.
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08-08-2017, 07:38 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2017 11:15 PM by evenheathen.)
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(07-08-2017 11:40 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  I don't discuss these postings with anyone. And I do find it wearying, but it's all I can do.

There's a saying out there, that if you meet one asshole in the morning, then you met an asshole. If everyone you meet all day long is an asshole, guess what? You're the asshole.

Now I'm not calling you an asshole, you seem quite pleasant so far, if disingenuous.

The point is that the fact that you find arguing the same thing over and over in places like this wearying is because you cannot win an argument. Every point you make has been dealt with over and over and has been debunked or devalued on a number of different levels. The problem is your inability to recognize it.

It wearies us also, we didn't necessarily come to this forum to have to deal with this crap, but here you are. So you will be dealt with...fairly I might add. Fairer than you're likely to reciprocate at least.

"It is man's greatest hindrance to progress, his proclivity towards ignoring an opposing view, whether correct or false."

~Some asshole on TTA

Do you forget that most of us here come from your same background and belief? Consider

Edit: For slight grammatical correction. Smartass Blush

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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08-08-2017, 07:44 PM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(08-08-2017 12:49 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  
(07-08-2017 09:46 PM)FarSeeker Wrote:  I have given the web published articles of TWO Atheist/Humanist websites. If you have an argument ... go talk to them; their addresses are in my original post:

https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/...z4jq6qE0X6

https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/saving-...secularism

They have not left you any intelligent excuse to claim I "misconstrued" anything, and I think any such claim by you is a lame attempt to avoid seriously dealing with the problem they decry.

I don't care what they say either. I care what you say, and what the people you're quoting said. That's it. Atheists are allowed to agree or disagree on any and every issue. That's the beauty of subjectivism. We have the opportunity to disagree with a worldview, and maybe come to a consensus.

I have read a few of the works of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris, and have watched hours of their lectures and debates, and YOU misrepresent what they say. That is all. It's not up for discussion because the nature of your cherry picking is self evident to anyone who has taken the time to understand where these people are coming from. Whether I agree or disagree is a moot point. What other atheists think is a moot point in this regard as well. They're not the ones that are here cherry picking quotes. I didn't even say I agree or disagree. I just felt it necessary to call your misconstruations out. You're the one who stormed into the atheist forum and started playing the atheist's antagonist after all. Not them.

The people you're referring to are not only atheists, but also humanists. They take some hardline views against religion, because they genuinely believe that it has stifled human progress and morality. And with that main point, I do not disagree. We may vehemently disagree on other things, but with this line of thinking I am homologous.

1) I was quoting other Atheists, so what is you problem?
>"Atheists are allowed to agree or disagree on any and every issue."
That is irrelevant. Words mean things, and when someone says:

"I'm not going to love them. You go love them if you want. Don't love them on my behalf. I'll get on with killing them, destroying them, erasing them. And you can love them. But the idea that you ought to love them is not a moral idea at all. It's a wicked idea."

There is no mincing of words there. It is a blatant call for tyranny, authoritarianism, totalitarianism, whatever you want to call it, and death.

2) I am agreeing with two separate Atheists on two separate websites for two separate organizations. How is it I am only one misrepresenting what they say. You should be happy I'm agreeing with Atheists.
>"It's not up for discussion"
So much for you being a freethinker. Facepalm

"What other atheists think is a moot point in this regard as well. They're not the ones that are here cherry picking quotes."
Well, as you're an Atheist, what you think must be a moot point. Now please be quiet while the adults talk. Drinking Beverage

IOW, sadly, facts don't faze you. A consensus among Atheists doesn't faze you. Well. your opinion doesn't change the facts of what Hitchens said.

And I did not storm in. I made a, "now wait a minute," post. When one Atheist claims there is no Totalitarian attitude in Hitchens writing, the evidence has to come out. If you disagree, let's talk about what each sentence means, but you cannot make a blanket statement and dictate, “YOU WILL ACCEPT WHAT I SAY OR ELSE.“ That's not how forums work. You've done nothing more here than hiss at me without making any valid arguments.

You're a Humanist, so what? The Marxists in the USSR said they were Humanists too. That the New Atheists took a hard line against Christianity and welcomed a Lenin fan into their inner circle does Not bode well.

How did Christianity "stifled human progress and morality," compared to what Atheists did in the USSR, PRC, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba, Eastern Europe? Atheists have been strangely quiet on that.Other than claiming "no true Atheist" fallacies.

While Christianity has been the fertile ground that has nurtured science for the past 1600 yrs. In a more recent example, The Atheists launched the first satellite in Oct. 1957; Explorer 1 launched Jan. 1958. That's 4 months. Gargarin launched in Apr. 1961, Glenn launched in Feb 1962. That's about 11 months. Yet the US was able to catch up in the Space Race and beat the Atheists of the USSR to the Moon 6 times by 1973. Tell me again how religion “holds back progress.”
RE:
"I consider myself a very conservative Marxist".
"He stated that capitalism had become the more revolutionary economic system,"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_...r_Hitchens

The Atheists of the USSR made a Treaty with the Nazis to divide Poland. Bad enough, but when the Soviets invaded, the Katyn Massacre that followed shocked even the Nazis. With all the Atheists have done in Marxist nations, tell me again how Atheists are more moral than Christians.
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/1247287
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If Atheists are the magnificent people you claim, then MArxism, ruled by Atheists, should have created a Utopia.
Your argument Fails.Drinking Beverage
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09-08-2017, 01:46 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
(06-08-2017 01:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  You are in fact completely incorrect. Religion is not required in order for mass-murder and other crimes to be outlawed, or even as a logical basis for such laws. It's perfectly fine for us to make laws based on consensus through democratic institutions such as parliament/congress etc. A majority of atheists, as with any majority of pragmatic humans interested in getting along and moving society forward, will recognise that outlawing stupid shit like killing huge numbers of people is a bright idea ™.

Anyway, for a guy who condemns mass murder, are you aware of all the times in the Bible where God specifically orders genocide? Pretty awkward for your argument eh?

Still waiting for some kind of answer to this.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-08-2017, 05:00 AM
RE: How Religion Destroys a Civilization (A Warning For The Present Day)
At work.

Hug Shai-

It would seem there is perhapse still a disconnect between what I am meaning , what I am typing and what FarSeeker is interpreting said meaning of said/posted words.... Consider
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